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Post by 3catcircus on Jun 9, 2021 16:00:40 GMT
You're an idiot and you keep proving it. Trump's "inaction?" You mean the stopping of travel from China to the US while leftist cunts called him a racist for doing so? You mean stopping European travelers when Italy was full of wuflu victims resulting from China happily sending their slave labor back to Italy after the lunar new year? Or the billions in emergency aid he asked Congress to approve? Or was it ramping up a program that got vaccines developed and delivered to the states in under a year when typical government efforts surrounding vaccines take a decade? Those inactions and missteps? The ones so awful that Burden-Kameltoe didn't do anything different when they took office? Yeah. Trump was a very odd dichotomy of doing things very right and doing things very wrong at the same time. He took many actions as you note to slow the virus from arriving in the U.S. and threw money at the problem which allowed a much faster vaccine, but at the same time he dismissed the virus left and right, and discouraged behaviors that would also slow down the virus in America. I think you're not understanding leadership showing confidence in the face of external threats. How would things have turned out if Churchill told the UK to prepare for surrender? If Roosevelt told Americans to fear Japanese aggression? If NASA wrote off Apollo 13 as doomed? As a leader, you don't engage in defeatist behaviors. You publicly remain positive even as you privately prepare for the worst. Some people insist that he should have had federal responses directly controlling the states in dealing with covid - that's not how a republic of multiple sovereign states works. More importantly, we have a year of evidence showing that states with lockdowns and mask mandates fared no better (in many instances, worse) than those states that didn't enact lockdowns or masks. In terms of the vaccine rollouts - those states that properly handled distro upon receipt from the feds vs those that fucked it up can also be clearly seen. This is the big failure for most people to understand why the majority of the world's actions are health theater The "flatten the curve" stuff does nothing to change the area under the curve - the same number of people will get covid, it just takes a lot longer and is a lot more painful for society. Other than a few outliers where you have clusters and where health care is for shit, *most* locales have had the majority of their covid cases come and go unnoticed. If this pandemic were as people were led to believe, every single hospital in every single location on the planet would have been overwhelmed and there would be bodies littering every street corner. There is a reason why the media only reported at specific hospitals even though there might be another within a few miles. If it bleeds, it leads... |
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Post by Maxperson on Jun 9, 2021 17:15:13 GMT
Yeah. Trump was a very odd dichotomy of doing things very right and doing things very wrong at the same time. He took many actions as you note to slow the virus from arriving in the U.S. and threw money at the problem which allowed a much faster vaccine, but at the same time he dismissed the virus left and right, and discouraged behaviors that would also slow down the virus in America. I think you're not understanding leadership showing confidence in the face of external threats. How would things have turned out if Churchill told the UK to prepare for surrender? If Roosevelt told Americans to fear Japanese aggression? If NASA wrote off Apollo 13 as doomed? As a leader, you don't engage in defeatist behaviors. You publicly remain positive even as you privately prepare for the worst. Some people insist that he should have had federal responses directly controlling the states in dealing with covid - that's not how a republic of multiple sovereign states works. More importantly, we have a year of evidence showing that states with lockdowns and mask mandates fared no better (in many instances, worse) than those states that didn't enact lockdowns or masks. In terms of the vaccine rollouts - those states that properly handled distro upon receipt from the feds vs those that fucked it up can also be clearly seen. This is the big failure for most people to understand why the majority of the world's actions are health theater The "flatten the curve" stuff does nothing to change the area under the curve - the same number of people will get covid, it just takes a lot longer and is a lot more painful for society. Other than a few outliers where you have clusters and where health care is for shit, *most* locales have had the majority of their covid cases come and go unnoticed. If this pandemic were as people were led to believe, every single hospital in every single location on the planet would have been overwhelmed and there would be bodies littering every street corner. There is a reason why the media only reported at specific hospitals even though there might be another within a few miles. If it bleeds, it leads... False Equivalences are false. A better equivalence would have been if Churchill had invested in lots of bomb shelters and then "confidently" told all of England not to use them when the Germans started bombing. Trump's behavior in that regard was stupid, not "showing confidence in the face of external threats." He could just as easily told everyone to wear their masks and confidently told them that it wouldn't have to be for very long, because he tossed 12 bajillion dollars into a vaccine. As for flattening the curve, you just don't get it. Had we not flattened it, we'd have had at least double the number of deaths. Even with a flattened curve, our hospitals in many areas were overrun. Flattening the curve saved tons of lives. |
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Post by 3catcircus on Jun 9, 2021 18:17:53 GMT
I think you're not understanding leadership showing confidence in the face of external threats. How would things have turned out if Churchill told the UK to prepare for surrender? If Roosevelt told Americans to fear Japanese aggression? If NASA wrote off Apollo 13 as doomed? As a leader, you don't engage in defeatist behaviors. You publicly remain positive even as you privately prepare for the worst. Some people insist that he should have had federal responses directly controlling the states in dealing with covid - that's not how a republic of multiple sovereign states works. More importantly, we have a year of evidence showing that states with lockdowns and mask mandates fared no better (in many instances, worse) than those states that didn't enact lockdowns or masks. In terms of the vaccine rollouts - those states that properly handled distro upon receipt from the feds vs those that fucked it up can also be clearly seen. This is the big failure for most people to understand why the majority of the world's actions are health theater The "flatten the curve" stuff does nothing to change the area under the curve - the same number of people will get covid, it just takes a lot longer and is a lot more painful for society. Other than a few outliers where you have clusters and where health care is for shit, *most* locales have had the majority of their covid cases come and go unnoticed. If this pandemic were as people were led to believe, every single hospital in every single location on the planet would have been overwhelmed and there would be bodies littering every street corner. There is a reason why the media only reported at specific hospitals even though there might be another within a few miles. If it bleeds, it leads... False Equivalences are false. A better equivalence would have been if Churchill had invested in lots of bomb shelters and then "confidently" told all of England not to use them when the Germans started bombing. Trump's behavior in that regard was stupid, not "showing confidence in the face of external threats." He could just as easily told everyone to wear their masks and confidently told them that it wouldn't have to be for very long, because he tossed 12 bajillion dollars into a vaccine. As for flattening the curve, you just don't get it. Had we not flattened it, we'd have had at least double the number of deaths. Even with a flattened curve, our hospitals in many areas were overrun. Flattening the curve saved tons of lives. No I do get it - all "flattening the curve" does is limit the already shall number of people who requires hospitalization at any one time. It doesn't decrease the number who will get infected, which in turn results in some of them being hospitalized and some of those hospitalized then dying - that number is the same. All it does is spread them out. All of the breathless reporting of hospital capacities neglected to acknowledge that they are designed and nabbed to operate at close to capacity - otherwise they lose money. Nor does it acknowledge that in rural places, their capacity is typically in the order of a dozen beds, not 100+. I've had to go to the ER multiple times this past year - including during the March-April timeframe last year and in November. No panic in the streets. No people gasping on stretchers in the hallways. No "heroic" nurses dancing for tiktok. Just a typical suburban ER with slightly more occupants. A sharp high peaked curve and a lower wide and flatter curve have the same area underneath if the number those curves represent is the same. |
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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 9, 2021 20:13:50 GMT
Still doesn't mean it was intentionally released and I know you don't subscribe to that, but others do. Nor does it absolve Trump of his inaction and fuck-ups regarding Covid-19. He is still at fault for most of the mess in the US due to that poor response. You're an idiot and you keep proving it. Trump's "inaction?" You mean the stopping of travel from China to the US while leftist cunts called him a racist for doing so? You mean stopping European travelers when Italy was full of wuflu victims resulting from China happily sending their slave labor back to Italy after the lunar new year? Or the billions in emergency aid he asked Congress to approve? Or was it ramping up a program that got vaccines developed and delivered to the states in under a year when typical government efforts surrounding vaccines take a decade? Those inactions and missteps? The ones so awful that Burden-Kameltoe didn't do anything different when they took office? The travel ban that didn't work because it was too limited. He didn't stop travel from China to the US. He stopped Chinese from traveling to the US from China. The travel ban from Europe was too late, the virus had already traveled to the US. The rest was good, but he should have pushed for the next round of aid even more. It should have happened before the election. Yeah, that may well have allowed Trump to actually win, but it really would have helped a lot. |
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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 9, 2021 20:26:45 GMT
False Equivalences are false. A better equivalence would have been if Churchill had invested in lots of bomb shelters and then "confidently" told all of England not to use them when the Germans started bombing. Trump's behavior in that regard was stupid, not "showing confidence in the face of external threats." He could just as easily told everyone to wear their masks and confidently told them that it wouldn't have to be for very long, because he tossed 12 bajillion dollars into a vaccine. As for flattening the curve, you just don't get it. Had we not flattened it, we'd have had at least double the number of deaths. Even with a flattened curve, our hospitals in many areas were overrun. Flattening the curve saved tons of lives. No I do get it - all "flattening the curve" does is limit the already shall number of people who requires hospitalization at any one time. It doesn't decrease the number who will get infected, which in turn results in some of them being hospitalized and some of those hospitalized then dying - that number is the same. All it does is spread them out. All of the breathless reporting of hospital capacities neglected to acknowledge that they are designed and nabbed to operate at close to capacity - otherwise they lose money. Nor does it acknowledge that in rural places, their capacity is typically in the order of a dozen beds, not 100+. I've had to go to the ER multiple times this past year - including during the March-April timeframe last year and in November. No panic in the streets. No people gasping on stretchers in the hallways. No "heroic" nurses dancing for tiktok. Just a typical suburban ER with slightly more occupants. A sharp high peaked curve and a lower wide and flatter curve have the same area underneath if the number those curves represent is the same. You're totally wrong. First, you're wrong that hospitals wouldn't have been overwhelmed. We saw it in India just weeks ago. People were dying that would have survived if they could have been hospitalized. It would have happened here without the flattening of the curve. Second, you're wrong about the number of people under the curve. Because early on, we didn't have treatments, we didn't have the vaccines, and etc. There would have been a lot of people in the dead category that aren't because we flattened the curve. |
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Post by 3catcircus on Jun 9, 2021 21:35:03 GMT
No I do get it - all "flattening the curve" does is limit the already shall number of people who requires hospitalization at any one time. It doesn't decrease the number who will get infected, which in turn results in some of them being hospitalized and some of those hospitalized then dying - that number is the same. All it does is spread them out. All of the breathless reporting of hospital capacities neglected to acknowledge that they are designed and nabbed to operate at close to capacity - otherwise they lose money. Nor does it acknowledge that in rural places, their capacity is typically in the order of a dozen beds, not 100+. I've had to go to the ER multiple times this past year - including during the March-April timeframe last year and in November. No panic in the streets. No people gasping on stretchers in the hallways. No "heroic" nurses dancing for tiktok. Just a typical suburban ER with slightly more occupants. A sharp high peaked curve and a lower wide and flatter curve have the same area underneath if the number those curves represent is the same. You're totally wrong. First, you're wrong that hospitals wouldn't have been overwhelmed. We saw it in India just weeks ago. People were dying that would have survived if they could have been hospitalized. It would have happened here without the flattening of the curve. Second, you're wrong about the number of people under the curve. Because early on, we didn't have treatments, we didn't have the vaccines, and etc. There would have been a lot of people in the dead category that aren't because we flattened the curve. 98% of those who get covid 100% recover. India was overwhelmed because they have 1.3 billion people with little too no access to healthcare since their public hospitals are for shit. Have you ever *been* to a public hospital in India? The Delhi government went so far as to pay 14 private hospitals to be covid-only - and none of the private hospitals had people dying in the hallways. But hey - socialized medicine FTW... www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/india-covid-crisis-shows-public-health-neglect-problems-underinvestment.html |
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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 9, 2021 22:10:19 GMT
You're totally wrong. First, you're wrong that hospitals wouldn't have been overwhelmed. We saw it in India just weeks ago. People were dying that would have survived if they could have been hospitalized. It would have happened here without the flattening of the curve. Second, you're wrong about the number of people under the curve. Because early on, we didn't have treatments, we didn't have the vaccines, and etc. There would have been a lot of people in the dead category that aren't because we flattened the curve. 98% of those who get covid 100% recover. India was overwhelmed because they have 1.3 billion people with little too no access to healthcare since their public hospitals are for shit. Have you ever *been* to a public hospital in India? The Delhi government went so far as to pay 14 private hospitals to be covid-only - and none of the private hospitals had people dying in the hallways. But hey - socialized medicine FTW... www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/india-covid-crisis-shows-public-health-neglect-problems-underinvestment.htmlGee, you only addressed one of the things I pointed out, wonder why that is? However, what is going on in India would have been much worse had it happened just a year ago, when nobody really understood how to treat the disease. That has changed, and so fewer people have died so far in India. Oh, and seriously, 2% of the world's population is a HUGE number. |
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Post by kirinke on Jun 10, 2021 0:09:25 GMT
Trying to explain things to 3cat is a fool's errand. He's swallowed the kool-aid for far too long.
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Post by evileeyore on Jun 10, 2021 4:12:00 GMT
Yeah. Trump was a very odd dichotomy of doing things very right and doing things very wrong at the same time. He took many actions as you note to slow the virus from arriving in the U.S. and threw money at the problem which allowed a much faster vaccine, but at the same time he dismissed the virus left and right, and discouraged behaviors that would also slow down the virus in America. As did Fuacci and especially the Dems. Until it was here, then they reversed path immediately and strangely so did Trump... it was a weird "I can't be seen embracing what the other side is doing even it's a the right thing to do" dance. |
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Post by 3catcircus on Jun 10, 2021 11:16:01 GMT
Yeah. Trump was a very odd dichotomy of doing things very right and doing things very wrong at the same time. He took many actions as you note to slow the virus from arriving in the U.S. and threw money at the problem which allowed a much faster vaccine, but at the same time he dismissed the virus left and right, and discouraged behaviors that would also slow down the virus in America. As did Fuacci and especially the Dems. Until it was here, then they reversed path immediately and strangely so did Trump... it was a weird "I can't be seen embracing what the other side is doing even it's a the right thing to do" dance. Yeah, funny how presidents of both parties reverse course... It's almost as if they're... Yes, yes, I'm having a vision... Yes, yes... They're heeding someone else's advice and modifying their behavior as a result. Those someone elses are, I believe, what the leftists call "experts." The funny thing being that Trump, unfortunately, sometimes heeded experts who were just plain wrong. In the cases where he went against their advice, he got things done. I've no doubt that Kissinger wanted to murder him and Kushner for getting 5 peace deals done in the middle east and getting rocket man to even come to a negotiating table. Waterhead Burden has already pissed that all away within his first 100 days... |
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Post by kirinke on Jun 11, 2021 0:37:28 GMT
Um no, Trump didn't reverse path. He only stopped calling it a Democratic Hoax when the deaths and cases were so high he couldn't ignore it anymore. Even then, he did everything in his power to shift blame to anyone but him. He might have thrown a few bones after all the lies cost America 500k of her citizens, but by then, he had done almost everything wrong.
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Post by evileeyore on Jun 11, 2021 4:32:55 GMT
Um no, Trump didn't reverse path. When the Dems were denying it existed, Trump pounced on closing ports to travelers from plague stricken areas (and Dems called it racist to deny travelers from those plague stricken lands). When Faucci and the CDC said "We need to wear masks" Trump started wearing a mask (and when Biden took office he made it a felony to not wear a mask on Federal property and then he and his administration immediately stopped wearing masks on Federal property). When the Dems finally jumped on board and started crying about how "we have to lock-down everyone" and "just two weeks to flatten the curve", Trump advised States to do as they individually saw fit, but urged them to follow CDC guidelines*. When Trump pushed for vaccines, the Dems wanted to put hurdles in the path of research†, but then when Trump wanted to fund research into alternative cures and prophylactics, the Dems said "No, pulling funding from vaccines cures is anti-science!" (despite that it wouldn't have touched the money ear-marked for the big three vaccine companies who were well ahead of the smaller research companies†). * That was the reversing. When the Dems were in "it doesn't exist mode", Trump was "full steam let's shut this shit down", but when the Dems jumped onboard, Trump seemed to back off and stop directly interfering on a federal level (he was still doing things like shutting down incoming travel and directing federal money and the CDC, but that was all quieter at that point as he literally could not tell States what to do no matter how retarded Dems wanted him to, same as with Biden, he can't order States to do shit... but I'm waiting for the excuses for why it'll be okay when COVID 2.0 rears up this winter and he refuses to order States into lockdown). † Because removing hurdles also brought with it a "no you can't sell the vaccine for stupidly insane prices until the pandemic is over in the US" and the Dems are all in the pocket of Big Pharma. Don't get me wrong, so are the Repubs, but Trump isn't and he was the one in charge. And in the second case it was pulling money from smaller drug companies that had contributed heavily to the DNC's warchest. Have you literally forgotten Trump locking the ports and airports to travelers from China and the Dems calling him racist and urging people to go to "little china town and hug the asians who just came back from chinese new year" and claiming "there is no plague, this is a racist conspiracy theory"? Are so fucking stupid that you think you can gaslight us on this? |
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Post by kirinke on Jun 11, 2021 11:49:52 GMT
Several things, he didn't block everyone from China, just chinese people. That's what was racist. By the time he did that, the virus was already in the wind and it was a racist, useless gesture. the china town thing was early in the outbreak, before we knew fuck all about it and it was a ham handed way to get people to not be afraid of chinese people. It was stupid but a reaction to Trump's fuck-tardiness.
Cite that please, I don't remember anyone saying that. The Lab-leak theory was considered racist because of how Trump put it. Nice try though.
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Post by 3catcircus on Jun 11, 2021 13:56:25 GMT
Several things, he didn't block everyone from China, just chinese people. That's what was racist. By the time he did that, the virus was already in the wind and it was a racist, useless gesture. the china town thing was early in the outbreak, before we knew fuck all about it and it was a ham handed way to get people to not be afraid of chinese people. It was stupid but a reaction to Trump's fuck-tardiness.
Cite that please, I don't remember anyone saying that. The Lab-leak theory was considered racist because of how Trump put it. Nice try though.
Blocking non-US citizens from entering the US from a plague-infected nation is racist how? Alternatively, show me in the federal code where the US can en masse bar citizens from returning home if they're sick. Oh, wait, you can't - because it isn't in there. You can be required to quarantine, you can be arrested for criminal acts, they can delay entry, but they can't deny entry to citizens. |
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Post by evileeyore on Jun 12, 2021 4:30:06 GMT
Several things, he didn't block everyone from China, just chinese people. That's what was racist. That's not racist, no matter how often the Dems claimed it was. That's stopping foreigners from a plague country from entering the US, it's just good practice. And as mentioned, we cannot actually block citizens from returning to the US, just quarantine them. No one knew "it was in the wind", so no, it wasn't useless. Akso, closing the ports is why it took longer for the US to get swamped than Italy, or have you forgotten the weeks of Italy being crushed under the virus before it started getting bad in New York? Nice hand wave there, so when the Dems were claiming Trump was being racist and some were even denying the pandemic existed (claiming it was just Trump peddling a conspiracy theory so he could pursue more anti-trade actions with China), their actions were to make it worse, but that's okay because it was "early in the outbreak" so we shouldn't hold their feet to the fire over it. You sure you're not paid by CNN? At this point I can no longer find which Dems were claiming the pandemic was "being overblown by Trump to pursue his racist anti-chinese anti-trade agenda", this was back in January 2020. Before it became the agenda of the Dems to lockdown the US and they flip-flopped on the COVID threat. No, it was called racist because calling things racist is what the Left does, even when things aren't in any way racist. It's a worthless statement, the theory is neither a conspiracy, nor racist, and as evidence mounts, its painting the counter theory as the conspiracy theory (the conspiracy being to protect various factions and individuals who were funding the gain-of-function research from the political blowback from being directly responsible for the situation that might have allowed this pandemic to occur). You want to know what's been racist and been 100% the Left during the entire pandemic? Claiming the virus "had to originated in the Wuhan wet-market", that fucking racist. Because it paints the wet-markets (and the chinese people who enjoy using them) as dirty and disease ridden, when many of them (okay, not all the markets) are clean and controlled environments. |
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