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Post by kirinke on Jan 3, 2021 13:23:20 GMT
So basically, nail bunny and 3cat have once again be snookered by pie in the sky ranting.
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Post by evileeyore on Jan 3, 2021 14:40:38 GMT
That's a commonly repeated meme, but it's not true, by any reasonable definition. I do not consider it reasonable that the individual European citizens do not get to vote on whom is the President of the European Commission, nor whom is the President of the of the European Council, nor whom make up the European Commission. No, I do not like the lack of direct capacity Citizens of the EU have in affecting their governance and do not wish to join that nonsense, and thus will fight it every step of the way (and then if we're so unfortunate as to have our elected officials* sell us out, fight to leave). * And no, I don't think Biden will push for us to join the Eu, 1) his presidency will only be laying the groundwork, and 2) he's not going to the one in charge of his presidency. |
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Post by kirinke on Jan 3, 2021 16:13:45 GMT
Again, you're ranting to the sky nail bunny. Biden is going to have his hands full just undoing the crap Trump and his cronies have shat all over the place, not to mention continuing the Covid-19 vaccine roll-out and the economic recovery from that. Here is your reality check of the day: The United States is never going to be part of the EU. That would take a constitutional amendment at the very least. Getting enough states to ratify the amendment will never happen.
The EU council is either voted in by their citizens or appointed by those the citizens vote in. Same as in the US. For example, the Supreme court justices aren't elected, but appointed by president, which is also not directly voted for by the people but through electors who do the voting.
Basic civics man, It ain't rocket science.
So before you go throwing stones at other people's way of governing, make sure your own government isn't doing the exact same thing.
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zappo
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Post by zappo on Jan 3, 2021 18:14:52 GMT
That's a commonly repeated meme, but it's not true, by any reasonable definition. I do not consider it reasonable that the individual European citizens do not get to vote on whom is the President of the European Commission, nor whom is the President of the of the European Council, nor whom make up the European Commission. Yeah, but all of those are nominated by somebody who won an election, and who will have to defend their choices in front of voters.
It sounds like you disapprove of appointed positions of power in principle, even when they are appointed by elected bodies? Do I understand that correctly? I can't think of any country that doesn't have those. The USA has SCOTUS at the very least, and I guess cabinet members too? Those bodies are very close to the top, and are unelected. The USA does elect the President, but that position is not the same as any position in the EU; different system - there just isn't any position within the EU with anywhere near that much power.
What I mean is, I respect your distrust of appointed positions, but from that to "the EU is not a democratic system" it's quite a long jump. Unless you're good with throwing out of the democracy bin a whole lot of countries: e.g. in Italy we only elect members of parliament at the national level; every other position is then appointed by parliament.
Now, maybe that's exactly your point, that unless you elect all top positions you're not democratic? But, while not outright nuts, this is not exactly a self-evident or even common position. Again, there is no country on Earth that works like that. |
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zappo
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Post by zappo on Jan 3, 2021 18:49:32 GMT
Here is your reality check of the day: The United States is never going to be part of the EU. That would take a constitutional amendment at the very least. Getting enough states to ratify the amendment will never happen. Uh, it would also take the EU accepting the offer. Which is... er... seriously, the politics of it would be insane. It's a whole new level of not gonna happen. Hell, if you guys seriously wanted to destroy the EU, making a serious offer to join would probably do it. |
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Post by kirinke on Jan 3, 2021 19:19:36 GMT
Lol. I didn't even take that into account. Still, the point stands, it won't happen. So, that entire rabbit hole is filled with water and mud.
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Post by evileeyore on Jan 3, 2021 20:33:28 GMT
Here is your reality check of the day: The United States is never going to be part of the EU. Of course not. We'd be joining the "Global Union", which the EU would also be having to join. If they even go that way, instead of our dear leaders simply signing us into shitty international agreements like the Paris Climate Accords, except, you know, one's with teeth that would actually penalize our country for not reducing birth rates and creating free open borders and fucking over our people. I mean... the EU basically started with their version of NAFTA, and you can see how that's turned out for them. The WEF just wants to make it, more ambitious, more global, and more binding. Yeah, but all of those are nominated by somebody who won an election, and who will have to defend their choices in front of voters. But will they really have to defend themselves? Or just take the payout and walk away come the next time they are up for election. Yup. I do not want unelected officials making and implementing laws. I've long disliked how SCOTUS gets into (and then stays forever in) power, however, in theory, they are not creating law. That's a technicality a lot of people cling to. I don't. Interpreting law is the next worst thing for unelected officials to be doing, but unfortunately that's how it works. So it goes. And if I had said that you'd have a point. |
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Post by kirinke on Jan 3, 2021 21:58:52 GMT
It's never going to happen. Take off the tin foil hat and relax your brain a bit.
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zappo
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Post by zappo on Jan 4, 2021 8:00:04 GMT
Yup. I do not want unelected officials making and implementing laws. Ah, gotcha. That makes sense and I agree with the general principle. Please note that the Commission* does not have legislative power; it only has legislative initiative - i.e. it can propose laws ("directives"), but these then have to pass both the Council and Parliament. The Council is composed of members of national governments, which are chosen according to whatever the national procedure is; some of them are unelected, although they were probably chosen by elected bodies (I'm not familiar with each and every EU country's system, but they do all have to be democratic).
The Parliament, though, is directly elected. The Commission and Council tend to try to get a majority to agree before going to a vote, so directives usually pass.
This is a fairly common setup; e.g. in Italy the (unelected) government also gets to propose laws, but has to get them through the national Parliament, and tends to win these votes because if a proposal is unlikely to pass they won't even field it.
So, looks good to me? There's nobody unelected who can actually pass laws, and every law has to go through a directly elected Parliament.
*The other bodies you mentioned earlier, the presidencies, don't have any legislative or executive power at all. |
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Post by kirinke on Jan 4, 2021 12:20:54 GMT
Something similar goes through here. The president can propose laws and even veto them, but in order to make it a law, it has to go through congress. Further complicating matters, is the house and senate both have versions of the same law and they must agree before it goes to the president to sign or not.
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Post by cyphersmith on Jan 4, 2021 16:45:12 GMT
Something similar goes through here. The president can propose laws and even veto them, but in order to make it a law, it has to go through congress. Further complicating matters, is the house and senate both have versions of the same law and they must agree before it goes to the president to sign or not. That's not quite true. While it's true that pretty much anyone can write a law, only members of the House and Senate can introduce bills into their respective chambers. |
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Post by kirinke on Jan 4, 2021 16:55:11 GMT
True.
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Post by evileeyore on Jan 5, 2021 4:27:48 GMT
There's nobody unelected who can actually pass laws, and every law has to go through a directly elected Parliament. That's less terrible than I thought... however it's still unelected officials who are proposing the laws. It's a step further away from what I prefer. |
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zappo
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Post by zappo on Jan 5, 2021 9:12:42 GMT
Fair. I only aim to inform. 👍
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Post by Kzach on Jan 5, 2021 15:44:57 GMT
Remember folks, The Great Reset is just a conspiracy theory... the elite globalists aren't really planning to destroy the middle-class... You're an idiot. Your masters love you. |
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