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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 27, 2022 19:23:53 GMT
It's still a women's health issue. And I can't think of any other health issue where the government prevents a medical procedure. Sure, but it's not only a women's health issue, and if you believe that life begins at conception, other than life of the mother being at risk, health isn't the most important issue. Not murdering an innocent baby is more important. Yeah, and we should NOT be basing rulings on belief. |
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Post by Maxperson on Jun 27, 2022 19:47:07 GMT
Sure, but it's not only a women's health issue, and if you believe that life begins at conception, other than life of the mother being at risk, health isn't the most important issue. Not murdering an innocent baby is more important. Yeah, and we should NOT be basing rulings on belief. You already are. Your side has nothing but belief. You just believe the baby is a clump of cells. |
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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 27, 2022 20:31:23 GMT
Yeah, and we should NOT be basing rulings on belief. You already are. Your side has nothing but belief. You just believe the baby is a clump of cells. Nope. When there are conflicting, unscientific beliefs regarding a medical procedure, but the procedure is safe, the decision to go through that procedure should be the patient's. |
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Post by libtard on Jun 27, 2022 21:00:34 GMT
Western democracies recognize the fact that allowing elective abortions is a social good. Western democracies don't have a vocal contingent of theocratic wannabes and a broken political system which facilitates this kind of bullshit like the US. /spittake Acting like there are no religious fundies in Eurotrash democracies is funny. Sure there are fundies. But fundies don't leverage the appointment of judges and determine reproductive healthcare for women in France, Germany, UK, Ireland, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Norway, Italy, Greece, Austria, Netherlands, Czechia, Slovakia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Slovenia, Romania, Bulgaria and Switzerland. Shit, even Hungary is in a better position than the US now. But keep wallowing in the shit. I'm sure it smells great if you've never smelled anything else. |
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Post by Maxperson on Jun 27, 2022 21:27:33 GMT
You already are. Your side has nothing but belief. You just believe the baby is a clump of cells. Nope. When there are conflicting, unscientific beliefs regarding a medical procedure, but the procedure is safe, the decision to go through that procedure should be the patient's. It's not merely a medical procedure, though. Life is literally on the line. Period. Whether you believe that the life begins at conception or believe it happens when the heartbeat begins, or when brain waves begins, or at birth, doesn't matter. Life is on the line and you need more than, "Hey, it's a medical procedure" to continue. A person's life is paramount and if there's even a chance that your "Hey, it's a medical procedure" is going to kill someone, you shouldn't go through with it. |
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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 27, 2022 22:36:30 GMT
Nope. When there are conflicting, unscientific beliefs regarding a medical procedure, but the procedure is safe, the decision to go through that procedure should be the patient's. It's not merely a medical procedure, though. Life is literally on the line. Period. Whether you believe that the life begins at conception or believe it happens when the heartbeat begins, or when brain waves begins, or at birth, doesn't matter. Life is on the line and you need more than, "Hey, it's a medical procedure" to continue. A person's life is paramount and if there's even a chance that your "Hey, it's a medical procedure" is going to kill someone, you shouldn't go through with it. Whose rights are paramount? The rights of a clump of cells that may eventually become a human being (if a whole host of things that could go wrong don't), or the rights of the person who you would force to host that clump of cells for 9 months, forcing that person to spend significant additional resources just to keep that clump of cells alive? Being forced by a government to bring a child into the world that the government will then ignore unless it does something the government doesn't like. That the government won't help through that childhood and help prepare it for adulthood beyond the absolute bare minimum. It won't make sure that child has enough food to actually be able to learn. It won't make sure that child has a roof over its head. It won't make sure that child has access to proper healthcare. But it WILL make sure that child, should it be female, carries any child to birth that happens to occur, even while she's still a child. In some states, even if it will kill her. In some states, even if it will not survive birth. |
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Post by Maxperson on Jun 27, 2022 23:33:45 GMT
It's not merely a medical procedure, though. Life is literally on the line. Period. Whether you believe that the life begins at conception or believe it happens when the heartbeat begins, or when brain waves begins, or at birth, doesn't matter. Life is on the line and you need more than, "Hey, it's a medical procedure" to continue. A person's life is paramount and if there's even a chance that your "Hey, it's a medical procedure" is going to kill someone, you shouldn't go through with it. Whose rights are paramount? The rights of a clump of cells that may eventually become a human being (if a whole host of things that could go wrong don't), or the rights of the person who you would force to host that clump of cells for 9 months, forcing that person to spend significant additional resources just to keep that clump of cells alive? Being forced by a government to bring a child into the world that the government will then ignore unless it does something the government doesn't like. That the government won't help through that childhood and help prepare it for adulthood beyond the absolute bare minimum. It won't make sure that child has enough food to actually be able to learn. It won't make sure that child has a roof over its head. It won't make sure that child has access to proper healthcare. But it WILL make sure that child, should it be female, carries any child to birth that happens to occur, even while she's still a child. In some states, even if it will kill her. In some states, even if it will not survive birth. You have no science to back up that it's just a clump of cells that will eventually become a human being. When you can prove that life doesn't begin at conception via science, THEN you can make that claim. Until then your belief is just a guess and it's a guess that kills an innocent baby if you're wrong. You wouldn't think it's okay to jail everyone accused of a crime even if there was only a 1% chance that any individual was innocent and would be jailed anyway. It's not okay to take the chance that you are wrong about it being a clump of cells and end up killing an innocent baby. |
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Post by libtard on Jun 28, 2022 6:00:35 GMT
If Americans were less devoted to a defunct 250-year old document and more concerned with a dynamic legal system which reflects contemporary values, you would be a happier society. I disagree. We'd be a country full of slaves to the State who had no Rights. Do you mean the right to free healthcare? Or the right to free education? Or the right to housing? Or the right to not get shot when attending kindergarten? Or the right to equitable pay? Or the right to paid maternity leave? Or the right to 4 weeks paid vacation every year? Or the right to not have the state snuff your life out? Or the right to childcare? Or the right to effective free legal representation? Or the right to not have politicians manipulate electoral wards? Or the right to not have fundies legislate against the interests of individual healthcare? Or the right to an effective, accountable police force? Oh, you mean the right to carry a gun and say n*gger without the State reprimanding you. Yes, that's much more important. It's working out real well for you. |
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Post by Maxperson on Jun 28, 2022 14:31:41 GMT
I disagree. We'd be a country full of slaves to the State who had no Rights. Do you mean the right to free healthcare? Or the right to free education? Or the right to housing? Or the right to not get shot when attending kindergarten? Or the right to equitable pay? Or the right to paid maternity leave? Or the right to 4 weeks paid vacation every year? Or the right to not have the state snuff your life out? Or the right to childcare? Or the right to effective free legal representation? Or the right to not have politicians manipulate electoral wards? Or the right to not have fundies legislate against the interests of individual healthcare? Or the right to an effective, accountable police force? Oh, you mean the right to carry a gun and say n*gger without the State reprimanding you. Yes, that's much more important. It's working out real well for you. There's no right to vacation dude. It doesn't exist as anything inherent to people. ROFL Or a right to have honest politicians. Or a right to any police force at all, let alone an accountable one. Or childcare. Or a free college education. Those things are nice to have, but are not rights. Rights are things like life and liberty. |
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Post by libtard on Jun 28, 2022 14:51:59 GMT
Do you mean the right to free healthcare? Or the right to free education? Or the right to housing? Or the right to not get shot when attending kindergarten? Or the right to equitable pay? Or the right to paid maternity leave? Or the right to 4 weeks paid vacation every year? Or the right to not have the state snuff your life out? Or the right to childcare? Or the right to effective free legal representation? Or the right to not have politicians manipulate electoral wards? Or the right to not have fundies legislate against the interests of individual healthcare? Or the right to an effective, accountable police force? Oh, you mean the right to carry a gun and say n*gger without the State reprimanding you. Yes, that's much more important. It's working out real well for you. There's no right to vacation dude. It doesn't exist as anything inherent to people. ROFL Or a right to have honest politicians. Or a right to any police force at all, let alone an accountable one. Or childcare. Or a free college education. Those things are nice to have, but are not rights. Rights are things like life and liberty. Rights are whatever a society enshrines as rights. It's not complicated. Where else do you think they come from? Yahweh? A hat? The back of a cornflakes box? |
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Post by Maxperson on Jun 28, 2022 14:52:45 GMT
There's no right to vacation dude. It doesn't exist as anything inherent to people. ROFL Or a right to have honest politicians. Or a right to any police force at all, let alone an accountable one. Or childcare. Or a free college education. Those things are nice to have, but are not rights. Rights are things like life and liberty. Rights are whatever a society enshrines as rights. It's not complicated. Where else do you think they come from? Yahweh? A hat? The back of a cornflakes box? Eh, no. If it can be granted, it's not a right. It's not complicated. Granted by society = privilege. Vacation time is a privilege granted by enlightened societies. Rights are inherent. Where do they come from? They are recognized as being inherent. Life and liberty are rights. |
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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 28, 2022 15:27:13 GMT
Whose rights are paramount? The rights of a clump of cells that may eventually become a human being (if a whole host of things that could go wrong don't), or the rights of the person who you would force to host that clump of cells for 9 months, forcing that person to spend significant additional resources just to keep that clump of cells alive? Being forced by a government to bring a child into the world that the government will then ignore unless it does something the government doesn't like. That the government won't help through that childhood and help prepare it for adulthood beyond the absolute bare minimum. It won't make sure that child has enough food to actually be able to learn. It won't make sure that child has a roof over its head. It won't make sure that child has access to proper healthcare. But it WILL make sure that child, should it be female, carries any child to birth that happens to occur, even while she's still a child. In some states, even if it will kill her. In some states, even if it will not survive birth. You have no science to back up that it's just a clump of cells that will eventually become a human being. You've misread what I'm saying. I'm saying that there are a fuckload of things that can happen to PREVENT that clump of cells from becoming a fully realized human being, ie, from being born. Yeah, I really don't agree with your definition. Just because it's alive and has different DNA than its host, that doesn't make a blastocyte a human being. There are many things in your body that are alive and have different DNA than you do that aren't a human being. Some of them even have human DNA, such as cancer. |
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Post by Maxperson on Jun 28, 2022 15:53:47 GMT
You have no science to back up that it's just a clump of cells that will eventually become a human being. You've misread what I'm saying. I'm saying that there are a fuckload of things that can happen to PREVENT that clump of cells from becoming a fully realized human being, ie, from being born. Yeah, I really don't agree with your definition. Just because it's alive and has different DNA than its host, that doesn't make a blastocyte a human being. There are many things in your body that are alive and have different DNA than you do that aren't a human being. Some of them even have human DNA, such as cancer. It doesn't matter how many natural things might prevent a baby from being born. Those are not relevant to this discussion. Like at all. This discussion is purely about deliberate manmade endings to life. You also don't get to alter my definition with blatantly False Equivalences like cancer. There is an incredibly large difference between cancer and a growing baby. |
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Post by evileeyore on Jun 28, 2022 16:08:20 GMT
Sure there are fundies. But fundies don't leverage the appointment of judges and determine reproductive healthcare for women in France, Germany, UK, Ireland, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Norway, Italy, Greece, Austria, Netherlands, Czechia, Slovakia, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Slovenia, Romania, Bulgaria and Switzerland. LOL! Keeping drinking the Eurotrash Koolaid, most of those states are "no better than we are" the others are more regressive to rights than we are. Oh, you mean the right to carry a gun and say n*gger without the State reprimanding you. Yes, that's much more important. No, but I do insist that "niggers" be allowed to own guns to protect themselves against tyranny, oppression, and slavery. You do know that gun control was a measure to remove guns from blacks? Right? And it's continued as measure to remove guns from the poor. But then as an Illiberal Elitist, I'm sure you're okay with that. Eh, no. If it can be granted, it's not a right. It's not complicated. Granted by society = privilege. Vacation time is a privilege granted by enlightened societies. Rights are inherent. Where do they come from? They are recognized as being inherent. Life and liberty are rights. Yes, there are no such things as Inherent Rights, everything is a Privilege flowing from the Powerful to the Powerless. No, in that for the sake of this discussion, we all know what Inherent Rights mean: The privileges granted by the State unto the People that the State has declared to be sacrosanct (or that the people hold to be so). We can disagree about 'which Rights that should include", but let's not play petty word games when we all know what's being discussed. The right to murder another human being when that human has no capacity to give voice to it's needs. Which, as I've stated for the record, I politically back, however I also believe each community (State level) should be allowed to decide for themselves if that is a Right or not. |
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Post by Devoid on Jun 28, 2022 16:15:40 GMT
Rights are whatever a society enshrines as rights. It's not complicated. Where else do you think they come from? Yahweh? A hat? The back of a cornflakes box? Eh, no. If it can be granted, it's not a right. It's not complicated. Granted by society = privilege. Vacation time is a privilege granted by enlightened societies. Rights are inherent. Where do they come from? They are recognized as being inherent. Life and liberty are rights. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Yet slavery (antithesis of liberty) endured for more than seventy-five years until passage (by society) of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments of the US Constitution. The phrase "all men are created equal" was not applied equally among sexes, races. What constitutes man? What constitutes liberty? What constitutes equality?
The US Constitution granted power at the federal level that didn't exist during the Articles of Confederation (Executive, Judicial branches). Where would the USA be if the Constitution (with its Bill of Rights along with the easier potential of adding amendments) had not been adopted to replace the Articles of Confederation?
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