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Post by kirinke on Sept 3, 2019 0:02:37 GMT
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 3, 2019 4:23:39 GMT
No, you're trying to deflect and you're angry that I'm not falling for it at all. Not even a little. "MSM". That means Main Stream Media. In other words, your thought leaders. I bet you think this is some sort of "own"... hmmm. I've 'similar' numbers somewhere else, I wonder where... The 2010 census: Self-identified race | Percent of population | White | 72.4% | Hispanic and Latino | 16.3% | Black | 12.6% | Asian | 4.8% | Native Americans | 0.9% |
And the percentage breakdown from your chart... Race | Percentage of Mass Shootings | White | 57% | Black | 16% | Hispanic and Latino | 9% | Asian | 7% | Native American | 3% |
Just look at the blacks, asians, and native americans overrepresented! If someone were of the mindset they could almost see this as racial problem... like there's been a black, asian, and native american mass shooting problem in the last 20 years. Now, do you want to try to make an argument for what to do about this "white male mass shooting problem" we're having or do you want to step on another rake?
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 3, 2019 4:28:47 GMT
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Post by kirinke on Sept 3, 2019 11:31:54 GMT
They tried that in New York. Harsh gun laws don't work. We need sensible ones. Universal background checks with a national background check database is a good start. It won't solve all of them, but it will help with some by making it harder for the fuckers to get weapons. That way the fuckers can't simply go to another state and purchase a fire arm when they shouldn't.
We also need to address the reasons behind the shootings. Not just mass shootings.
Those reasons tend to boil down to: Mental issues, gang violence, domestic violence and easy access to weapons for people who shouldn't have them.
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 3, 2019 14:09:51 GMT
They tried that in New York. Harsh gun laws don't work. You don't actually click on links do you? The second link spells out exactly how the harsh guns laws of Illinois failed, and it had nothing to do with "simply go to another state and purchase a fire arm when they shouldn't". He bought his firearm in Illinois when he shouldn't have been allowed to. Sure. Most sensible people are behind this. There we go, that's the right answer.
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Post by cyphersmith on Sept 3, 2019 17:32:40 GMT
I am not talking about that. I am talking about mass shootings. No one's stopping you. I think that's a foolish hill to go die on when there are far worse problems being deliberately ignored. So, what are you calling "recent", what's the date range you wish to discuss? Just this year? Last year?I'm trying to point out that you're seeing this as a "sudden problem surmounting all others" and that it's a "white male" problem because the MSM is telling you that it is. Not that it really, actually is. LOL. Do you want to include previous years? I doubt that you do... the discussion won't go well for you (hell, this year won't go well for you if you want to lay the mass shootings all on the feet of the whites). "The subject"? The subject of this thread is "Random Political Thoughts", I know, I set it. You want a different subject, a different set of rules to engage by? Start a different thread, set your rules of engagement. The two things have very different causes, and effects. They also have very different solutions. The solution for mass shootings is likely to make access to high capacity semi-automatic rifles much more difficult. The solution for inner city violence likely has nothing to do with gun control at all. Though it is impossible to know for sure. Though your comments with respect to race are somewhat incorrect. Many of the areas with such high rates of crime are there as a result of racist policies including redlining and zoning. I have a question about the data on gun violence you posted. Does it include suicides?
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 3, 2019 18:53:29 GMT
The two things have very different causes, and effects. They also have very different solutions. I disagree. Knife Attack at Chinese Middle School Leaves Nine Children DeadViolence will find a way. We need to figure out how to defuse the violence, not disarm the populace. Not even a little bit. And yet, despite that being literally in the past, long enough ago that the generation born into it aren't alive anymore*, people remain in their downtrodden, oppressed neighborhoods. Those who rose above their situation, got out. Those who could not, did not, and became a part of the system of oppression. [EDIT] * Apparently redlining is still ongoing (in fact it was particularly strong in the mid-70s which I'd forgotten), so there is still some systemic oppression in place. [/EDIT] It's like people don't know how to click links anymore (presuming that you're referring to the Gun Violence Archive): "22,000 Annual Suicides not included on Daily Summary Ledger"
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 3, 2019 18:55:33 GMT
Violence will find a way. We need to figure out how to defuse the violence, not disarm the populace. Still appropriate: 
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Post by cyphersmith on Sept 3, 2019 22:16:48 GMT
Never said it wouldn't. In fact, previous violence is the most common characteristic of mass shooters. Here's the thing, while you can do mass killings with other items, it's much more difficult. The ease of access to guns is what makes mass shootings more common. That access isn't the cause of the problems in urban neighborhoods. Not even a little bit. And yet, despite that being literally in the past, long enough ago that the generation born into it aren't alive anymore*, people remain in their downtrodden, oppressed neighborhoods. Those who rose above their situation, got out. Those who could not, did not, and became a part of the system of oppression. [EDIT] * Apparently redlining is still ongoing (in fact it was particularly strong in the mid-70s which I'd forgotten), so there is still some systemic oppression in place. [/EDIT] And redlining isn't the only racist policy of the past that still is ongoing. Zoning is a racist policy in many ways, though it's also a classist policy. Just by zoning areas as single family residential, you have mostly prevented the unwanted (which are mostly people of color) from being able to move into particular areas.
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 3, 2019 22:54:51 GMT
The ease of access to guns is what makes mass shootings more common. Take away a person's right to be armed, and you take away their capacity to effectively resist a tyrannical government. Just look at Hong Kong. Just because a policy affects a race, that doesn't make it racist (considering it affects everyone below a certain credit line, not just blacks). And seeing as there are more generationally poor whites than there are even blacks in the US... yeah, try explaining how a classist policy is racist again?
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Post by Kzach on Sept 3, 2019 23:36:59 GMT
The ease of access to guns is what makes mass shootings more common. Take away a person's right to be armed, and you take away their capacity to effectively resist a tyrannical government. Just look at Hong Kong. Hong Kong protesters are resisting China pretty well without firearms. Heck, if they were armed, China would have already send in the tanks. Moron.
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Post by kirinke on Sept 4, 2019 0:33:32 GMT
For inner city crime, you gotta make it harder for gangs to recruit and you need to stomp on the gang's source of income. Easy ways to do it: Make drugs legal. That way you can regulate the shit and tax it. Make prostitution legal. See above. Prohibition doesn't work anyway. It just drives the vice underground. That will put a strangle hold on their ability to get money.
Bonus. It'll make the bible thumpers scream bloody murder.
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Post by cyphersmith on Sept 4, 2019 1:10:28 GMT
The ease of access to guns is what makes mass shootings more common. Take away a person's right to be armed, and you take away their capacity to effectively resist a tyrannical government. Just look at Hong Kong. Who said anything about taking away their guns? I sure as fuck didn't. I said that easy access to a specific type of weapon is what makes mass shootings happen more. I didn't say access to those weapons, I said easy access. Right now, it's too easy to get a semi-automatic rifle. Take that guy most recently in Texas. He got his gun legally without a background check, which he had failed a few years ago, by buying his gun from a private individual. THAT'S too easy access. All gun sales should be required to go through a licensed dealer with a background check done. Look at it this way. Mass shootings didn't really occur until semi-automatic rifles became common. I don't believe that is coincidental. Sure, there were a few before that, most especially the Clock Tower sniper, but the majority are from after semi-automatic rifles became common. Those same semi-automatic rifles are the weapon of choice in mass shootings. Sure, pistols could be used just as well, but they're not. In fact, pistols are used for most gun violence, but not as much as semi-automatic rifles in mass shootings. Like I said, mass shootings are different beasts with different causes and a different solution. Just because a policy affects a race, that doesn't make it racist (considering it affects everyone below a certain credit line, not just blacks). And seeing as there are more generationally poor whites than there are even blacks in the US... yeah, try explaining how a classist policy is racist again? The policy of zoning started, and was initially implemented, as a racist policy. That it remains is classist, but it enforces the racist reasons for the policy.
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Post by kirinke on Sept 5, 2019 11:43:40 GMT
With the latest mass shooting, the guy actually failed a background check, so he couldn't get a gun through a dealer. He got it through a private sale. Private sales don't have background checks.
Closing up that loop hole would help as well.
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 5, 2019 21:08:56 GMT
Closing up that loop hole would help as well. Closing that "loop hole", as you put*, is a thorny issue. You think we should do away with all second hand sales of merchandise? If not, why? * Or as those of us with a bit less of an authoritarian bent put it, "basic right".
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