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Post by Maxperson on Apr 9, 2021 22:46:13 GMT
Twitter and screenshots are not proof dear. We need real cites.
It's a screencap off the WHOs website that he posted. But hey, you keep on denying basic scientific facts that inconveniently offer proof that what you want to believe just isn't so. apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/337199/WHO-2019-nCov-IPC_Masks-2020.5-eng.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=yHere you go. Directly from the WHO. Read the whole thing. Understand what they are saying. I'll help you: we have some studies suggesting may be useful, but they are limited in size and we can't be sure of bias induction. The best studies that have been confirmed and they make no difference outside of health care settings. We're have no evidence that non-meducal cloth masks do anything, but if you make one, we'd recommended making it this way... Probablistic risk assessment based upon confirmed study results. Not best guess using unconfirmed studies with limited data where bias effects are present. If you only read the upfront piece which suggests using masks, you are missing the actual science and caveats contained in the rest of the document which clearly illustrate that they have no actual scientific evidence that they work in community settings and they recommendation is based upon engaging in health theater... "We don't have any idea if this actually works or not based upon scientific evidence, but do it anyway." Thanks! From the very first key point of that link. " The World Health Organization (WHO) advises the use of masks as part of a comprehensive package of prevention and control measures to limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19. A mask alone, even when it is used correctly, is insufficient to provide adequate protection or source control. Other infection prevention and control (IPC) measures include hand hygiene, physical distancing of at least 1 metre, avoidance of touching one’s face, respiratory etiquette, adequate ventilation in indoor settings, testing, contact tracing, quarantine and isolation. Together these measures are critical to prevent human-to-human transmission of SARS-CoV-2." So, yeah. It does help according to them. It just doesn't do it as the ONLY means of protection. They're saying that if you put a mask on and then start coughing in the face of someone 1 inch away, they're going to get it. You also need to social distance. Try to use your brain when you read these things. It will help you.
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 9, 2021 22:56:41 GMT
Yes and it unequivocally states that you should wear a fucking mask dumbass.
No, actually, it doesn't unequivocally. It details specific risk factors, scenarios, and conditions, as well as caveating it all because the scientific evidence is itself in need of additional study. I'm sure you probably read 3 sentences in and found the subject matter too advanced. It happens.
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Post by Maxperson on Apr 9, 2021 23:14:28 GMT
Yes and it unequivocally states that you should wear a fucking mask dumbass.
No, actually, it doesn't unequivocally. It details specific risk factors, scenarios, and conditions, as well as caveating it all because the scientific evidence is itself in need of additional study. I'm sure you probably read 3 sentences in and found the subject matter too advanced. It happens. I'll show it to you again, since apparently you missed it the first time you read the article and then again when I quoted it above. " The World Health Organization (WHO) advises the use of masks as part of a comprehensive package of prevention and control measures to limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2." That's an unequivocal advisory from WHO to wear the fucking mask.
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 9, 2021 23:31:14 GMT
No, actually, it doesn't unequivocally. It details specific risk factors, scenarios, and conditions, as well as caveating it all because the scientific evidence is itself in need of additional study. I'm sure you probably read 3 sentences in and found the subject matter too advanced. It happens. I'll show it to you again, since apparently you missed it the first time you read the article and then again when I quoted it above. " The World Health Organization (WHO) advises the use of masks as part of a comprehensive package of prevention and control measures to limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2." That's an unequivocal advisory from WHO to wear the fucking mask. I'll take it under advisement...
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Post by kirinke on Apr 9, 2021 23:41:22 GMT
Then it lists the reasons why in bulleted points. Overwhelmingly, the article supports mask use. It's not going to kill you to wear one you idiot. If you get one that is a good fit, you won't mind it. Hell, they even have comfortable ear straps now.
Wear the damned mask. It won't kill you or hurt you. It will help save your life and your loved one's life. But then, that's Minoan to you.
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Post by Maxperson on Apr 10, 2021 6:38:00 GMT
I'll show it to you again, since apparently you missed it the first time you read the article and then again when I quoted it above. " The World Health Organization (WHO) advises the use of masks as part of a comprehensive package of prevention and control measures to limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2." That's an unequivocal advisory from WHO to wear the fucking mask. I'll take it under advisement... Now we can add liar to your resume.
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Post by kirinke on Apr 10, 2021 11:19:47 GMT
Willfully blind is another.
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 10, 2021 15:01:08 GMT
You've completely ignored all but the first couple of paragraphs, just like you routinely do when consuming news media, jump to some conclusion that isn't what is actually stated, then get proven to be an idiot when called out on it. You never bother reading the entire thing. The emphasis in this guidance is on *risk-based* approaches and on understanding that the data isn't confirmed. This document is intended for governments, health care workers, and public policy advisors, which is why the caveats and recommendations. *They*, unlike you, are expected to read the whole thing and make determinations holistically. No one expects the public to read the full thing, understand the limitations and caveats, and then perform a risk-based assessment - which is why the upfront with the data and methodology later on.
"Decision makers should apply a risk-based approach when considering the use of masks for the general public. - In areas of known or suspected community or cluster SARS-CoV-2 transmission... - In any transmission scenarios: Caregivers or those sharing living space with people with suspected or confirmed COVID-19, regardless of symptoms, should wear a medical mask when in the same room."
This is referring to where you *actually* have outbreaks that are increasing vs when you aren't in an active increase in transmission situation - they aren't all "COVID is coming! COVID is coming" panics. Local, County, and State health departments are supposed to actually do their jobs and track whether or not any infectious disease is breaking out and what the trends are. Newsflash - COVID *isn't* widespread in every locale. The "any transmission scenario" applies to "we have no confirmed widespread outbreak in this locale." Some places currently have an Rt below 1, others above 1, and some stable at 1 (which really means it could be just below to just above). Where I'm at, its below 1. There is zero reason to wear a mask outside of a health care setting or in the midst of suspected or confirmed infected people here. Arizona is estimated to have an Rt of 1.1. Brazil's Rt is 0.87, despite the panicked reporting by the news of people dying in the streets.
When they talk about methods of transmission, the words "can" repeatedly appear - in a scientific context this is a "anything is possible" word. It is not the same as a "shall," "should," or "may." It has specific scientific meaning rather than its use in the vernacular.
They specifically state they have no actual proof that it spreads via aerosol in community settings:
"High quality research is required to address the knowledge gaps related to modes of transmission, infectious dose and settings in which transmission can be amplified. Currently, studies are underway to better understand the conditions in which aerosol transmission or superspreading events may occur."
They specifically break out mask usage into health care settings separately from community settings. The obvious reason for doing so is *completely* based upon a scientific risk assessment.
On masks in community settings:
"At present there is only limited and inconsistent scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of masking of healthy people in the community to prevent infection with respiratory viruses, including SARS-CoV-2 (75). A large randomized community-based trial in which 4862 healthy participants were divided into a group wearing medical/surgical masks and a control group found no difference in infection with SARS-CoV-2 (76). A recent systematic review found nine trials (of which eight were cluster-randomized controlled trials in which clusters of people, versus individuals, were randomized) comparing medical/surgical masks versus no masks to prevent the spread of viral respiratory illness. Two trials were with healthcare workers and seven in the community. The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference to the prevention of influenza-like illness (ILI) (RR 0.99, 95%CI 0.82 to 1.18) or laboratory confirmed illness (LCI) (RR 0.91, 95%CI 0.66-1.26) (44); the certainty of the evidence was low for ILI, moderate for LCI."
"A number of studies, some peer reviewed (82-86) but most published as pre-prints (87-104), reported a decline in the COVID-19 cases associated with face mask usage by the public, using country- or region-level data. One study reported an association between community mask wearing policy adoption and increased movement (less time at home, increased visits to commercial locations) (105). These studies differed in setting, data sources and statistical methods and have important limitations to consider (106), notably the lack of information about actual exposure risk among individuals, adherence to mask wearing and the enforcement of other preventive measures (107, 108)."
They *specifically* are indicating that mask studies aren't high-quality enough to support a scientific finding of fact - they best they have showed no difference.
They *specifically* state that in the "any transmission" scenario, you are concerned with only those who are suspected or lab confirmed as having COVID with the purpose of source control:
"Anyone suspected or confirmed of having COVID-19, regardless of whether they have symptoms or not, or anyone awaiting viral test results, when in the presence of others - Purpose of Mask Use: Source Control"
This is all context that you either don't understand or are willfully ignoring. *YOU* don't get to decide whether or not other people should be wearing masks or social distancing in the absence of clusters of transmission. Your county health department should be maintaining statistics on rate of change of cases - in almost *all* areas of the country, that trend has been downward after the end of cold/flu season.
You completely don't understand the difference between 90-year old COPD sufferers in nursing homes vs. healthy adults not in the presence of someone visibly ill. The risks are *vastly* different and this WHO guidance states as much, in determining what to consider regarding masks. Of course they are going to recommend masks be worn by everyone, if all you are concerned with is trying to achieve a zero risk situation. Zero risk situations don't naturally occur. "A mask alone, even when it is used correctly, is insufficient to provide adequate protection or source control." *In those situations where you have a higher risk.* Indoors with no ventilation next to someone who lives with someone who has lab-confirmed COVID? Sure, wear a mask. Outdoors amongst people who *aren't* sick and who aren't first contact exposures to someone who is? The risk is so low that mask wearing makes zero difference.
The guidance talks about mask usage - you continue to ignore the caveats and the limits to the scientific evidence. They're saying "we think you should, but we have no proof; in fact, the only scientific evidence that we *do* have that has been confirmed as bias-free shows that they make no difference." This is a "in health care settings, wear all kinds of protective gear, but for the public going about their business, this is really just psychological peace of mind."
Lastly,
Are you doing the following, all the time, every time? If not, your mask usage will actually be more dangerous than not:
-Perform hand hygiene before putting on the mask. -Inspect the mask for tears or holes, and do not use a damaged mask. -Place the mask carefully, ensuring it covers the mouth and nose, adjust to the nose bridge and tie it securely to minimize any gaps between the face and the mask. If using ear loops, ensure these do not cross over as this widens the gap between the face and the mask. -Avoid touching the mask while wearing it. If the mask is accidently touched, perform hand hygiene. -Remove the mask using the appropriate technique. Do not touch the front of the mask, but rather untie it from behind. -Replace the mask as soon as it becomes damp with a new clean, dry mask. -Either discard the mask or place it in a clean plastic resealable bag where it is kept until it can be washed and cleaned. Do not store the mask around the arm or wrist or pull it down to rest around the chin or neck. -Perform hand hygiene immediately afterward discarding a mask. -Do not re-use single-use mask. -Discard single-use masks after each use and properly dispose of them immediately upon removal. -Do not remove the mask to speak. -Do not share your mask with others. -Wash fabric masks in soap or detergent and preferably hot water (at least 60° Centigrade/140° Fahrenheit) at least once a day. If it is not possible to wash the masks in hot water, then wash the mask in soap/detergent and room temperature water, followed by boiling the mask for 1 minute.
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Post by Maxperson on Apr 10, 2021 15:21:20 GMT
You've completely ignored all but the first couple of paragraphs, just like you routinely do when consuming news media, jump to some conclusion that isn't what is actually stated, then get proven to be an idiot when called out on it. You never bother reading the entire thing. The emphasis in this guidance is on *risk-based* approaches and on understanding that the data isn't confirmed. This document is intended for governments, health care workers, and public policy advisors, which is why the caveats and recommendations. *They*, unlike you, are expected to read the whole thing and make determinations holistically. No one expects the public to read the full thing, understand the limitations and caveats, and then perform a risk-based assessment - which is why the upfront with the data and methodology later on. "Decision makers should apply a risk-based approach when considering the use of masks for the general public. - In areas of known or suspected community or cluster SARS-CoV-2 transmission... - In any transmission scenarios: Caregivers or those sharing living space with people with suspected or confirmed COVID-19, regardless of symptoms, should wear a medical mask when in the same room." This is referring to where you *actually* have outbreaks that are increasing vs when you aren't in an active increase in transmission situation - they aren't all "COVID is coming! COVID is coming" panics. Local, County, and State health departments are supposed to actually do their jobs and track whether or not any infectious disease is breaking out and what the trends are. Newsflash - COVID *isn't* widespread in every locale. The "any transmission scenario" applies to "we have no confirmed widespread outbreak in this locale." Some places currently have an Rt below 1, others above 1, and some stable at 1 (which really means it could be just below to just above). Where I'm at, its below 1. There is zero reason to wear a mask outside of a health care setting or in the midst of suspected or confirmed infected people here. Arizona is estimated to have an Rt of 1.1. Brazil's Rt is 0.87, despite the panicked reporting by the news of people dying in the streets. When they talk about methods of transmission, the words "can" repeatedly appear - in a scientific context this is a "anything is possible" word. It is not the same as a "shall," "should," or "may." It has specific scientific meaning rather than its use in the vernacular. They specifically state they have no actual proof that it spreads via aerosol in community settings: "High quality research is required to address the knowledge gaps related to modes of transmission, infectious dose and settings in which transmission can be amplified. Currently, studies are underway to better understand the conditions in which aerosol transmission or superspreading events may occur." They specifically break out mask usage into health care settings separately from community settings. The obvious reason for doing so is *completely* based upon a scientific risk assessment. On masks in community settings: "At present there is only limited and inconsistent scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of masking of healthy people in the community to prevent infection with respiratory viruses, including SARS-CoV-2 (75). A large randomized community-based trial in which 4862 healthy participants were divided into a group wearing medical/surgical masks and a control group found no difference in infection with SARS-CoV-2 (76). A recent systematic review found nine trials (of which eight were cluster-randomized controlled trials in which clusters of people, versus individuals, were randomized) comparing medical/surgical masks versus no masks to prevent the spread of viral respiratory illness. Two trials were with healthcare workers and seven in the community. The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference to the prevention of influenza-like illness (ILI) (RR 0.99, 95%CI 0.82 to 1.18) or laboratory confirmed illness (LCI) (RR 0.91, 95%CI 0.66-1.26) (44); the certainty of the evidence was low for ILI, moderate for LCI." "A number of studies, some peer reviewed (82-86) but most published as pre-prints (87-104), reported a decline in the COVID-19 cases associated with face mask usage by the public, using country- or region-level data. One study reported an association between community mask wearing policy adoption and increased movement (less time at home, increased visits to commercial locations) (105). These studies differed in setting, data sources and statistical methods and have important limitations to consider (106), notably the lack of information about actual exposure risk among individuals, adherence to mask wearing and the enforcement of other preventive measures (107, 108)." They *specifically* are indicating that mask studies aren't high-quality enough to support a scientific finding of fact - they best they have showed no difference. They *specifically* state that in the "any transmission" scenario, you are concerned with only those who are suspected or lab confirmed as having COVID with the purpose of source control: "Anyone suspected or confirmed of having COVID-19, regardless of whether they have symptoms or not, or anyone awaiting viral test results, when in the presence of others - Purpose of Mask Use: Source Control" This is all context that you either don't understand or are willfully ignoring. *YOU* don't get to decide whether or not other people should be wearing masks or social distancing in the absence of clusters of transmission. Your county health department should be maintaining statistics on rate of change of cases - in almost *all* areas of the country, that trend has been downward after the end of cold/flu season. You completely don't understand the difference between 90-year old COPD sufferers in nursing homes vs. healthy adults not in the presence of someone visibly ill. The risks are *vastly* different and this WHO guidance states as much, in determining what to consider regarding masks. Of course they are going to recommend masks be worn by everyone, if all you are concerned with is trying to achieve a zero risk situation. Zero risk situations don't naturally occur. "A mask alone, even when it is used correctly, is insufficient to provide adequate protection or source control." *In those situations where you have a higher risk.* Indoors with no ventilation next to someone who lives with someone who has lab-confirmed COVID? Sure, wear a mask. Outdoors amongst people who *aren't* sick and who aren't first contact exposures to someone who is? The risk is so low that mask wearing makes zero difference. The guidance talks about mask usage - you continue to ignore the caveats and the limits to the scientific evidence. They're saying "we think you should, but we have no proof; in fact, the only scientific evidence that we *do* have that has been confirmed as bias-free shows that they make no difference." This is a "in health care settings, wear all kinds of protective gear, but for the public going about their business, this is really just psychological peace of mind." Lastly, Are you doing the following, all the time, every time? If not, your mask usage will actually be more dangerous than not: -Perform hand hygiene before putting on the mask. -Inspect the mask for tears or holes, and do not use a damaged mask. -Place the mask carefully, ensuring it covers the mouth and nose, adjust to the nose bridge and tie it securely to minimize any gaps between the face and the mask. If using ear loops, ensure these do not cross over as this widens the gap between the face and the mask. -Avoid touching the mask while wearing it. If the mask is accidently touched, perform hand hygiene. -Remove the mask using the appropriate technique. Do not touch the front of the mask, but rather untie it from behind. -Replace the mask as soon as it becomes damp with a new clean, dry mask. -Either discard the mask or place it in a clean plastic resealable bag where it is kept until it can be washed and cleaned. Do not store the mask around the arm or wrist or pull it down to rest around the chin or neck. -Perform hand hygiene immediately afterward discarding a mask. -Do not re-use single-use mask. -Discard single-use masks after each use and properly dispose of them immediately upon removal. -Do not remove the mask to speak. -Do not share your mask with others. -Wash fabric masks in soap or detergent and preferably hot water (at least 60° Centigrade/140° Fahrenheit) at least once a day. If it is not possible to wash the masks in hot water, then wash the mask in soap/detergent and room temperature water, followed by boiling the mask for 1 minute. You're a dumbass. "You've completely ignored all but the first couple of paragraphs" Their conclusions are in those first paragraphs, and it is in more than the first couple. ""Decision makers should apply a risk-based approach when considering the use of masks for the general public. - In areas of known or suspected community or cluster SARS-CoV-2 transmission...
- In any transmission scenarios: Caregivers or those sharing living space with people with suspected or confirmed COVID-19, regardless of symptoms, should wear a medical mask when in the same room." So you do realize that the bolded is literally all of the world right now, right. We suspect Covid of being in every community, because it is. "When they talk about methods of transmission, the words "can" repeatedly appear - in a scientific context this is a "anything is possible" word. It is not the same as a "shall," "should," or "may." It has specific scientific meaning rather than its use in the vernacular." You mean like when they say, "The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference to the prevention of influenza-like illness..." that you are relying on so heavily. The following is also said in the link. "However, the use of a mask alone, even when correctly used (see below), is insufficient to provide an adequate level of protection for an uninfected individual or prevent onward transmission from an infected individual (source control)." Insufficient to all by itself be adequate, not that it provides no protection at all. "The virus can spread from an infected person’s mouth or nose in small liquid particles when the person coughs, sneezes, sings, breathes heavily or talks. These liquid particles are different sizes, ranging from larger ‘respiratory droplets’ to smaller ‘aerosols.’" That was in the Scientific Evidence section and directly contradicts your incorrect reading of them saying that it doesn't spread via aerosols in community settings. The part you quoted didn't say that at all. It simply said that they were doing more research on it. And the following was ignored by you in the paragraph after they said, "The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference..." "By contrast, a small retrospective cohort study from Beijing found that mask use by entire families before the first family member developed COVID-19 symptoms was 79% effective in reducing transmission (OR 0.21, 0.06-0.79) (77). A case control study from Thailand found that wearing a medical or non-medical mask all the time during contact with a COVID19 patient was associated with a 77% lower risk of infection (aOR 0.23; 95% CI 0.09–0.60)" And in the same section a few more paragraphs down. "Studies of influenza, influenza-like illness and human coronaviruses (not including COVID-19) provide evidence that the use of a medical mask can prevent the spread of infectious droplets from a symptomatic infected person to someone else and potential contamination of the environment by these droplets (75)" So you can continue to delude yourself though selective reading, but you're not doing anyone, including yourself, any favors by doing so.
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 10, 2021 15:50:25 GMT
You've completely ignored all but the first couple of paragraphs, just like you routinely do when consuming news media, jump to some conclusion that isn't what is actually stated, then get proven to be an idiot when called out on it. You never bother reading the entire thing. The emphasis in this guidance is on *risk-based* approaches and on understanding that the data isn't confirmed. This document is intended for governments, health care workers, and public policy advisors, which is why the caveats and recommendations. *They*, unlike you, are expected to read the whole thing and make determinations holistically. No one expects the public to read the full thing, understand the limitations and caveats, and then perform a risk-based assessment - which is why the upfront with the data and methodology later on. "Decision makers should apply a risk-based approach when considering the use of masks for the general public. - In areas of known or suspected community or cluster SARS-CoV-2 transmission... - In any transmission scenarios: Caregivers or those sharing living space with people with suspected or confirmed COVID-19, regardless of symptoms, should wear a medical mask when in the same room." This is referring to where you *actually* have outbreaks that are increasing vs when you aren't in an active increase in transmission situation - they aren't all "COVID is coming! COVID is coming" panics. Local, County, and State health departments are supposed to actually do their jobs and track whether or not any infectious disease is breaking out and what the trends are. Newsflash - COVID *isn't* widespread in every locale. The "any transmission scenario" applies to "we have no confirmed widespread outbreak in this locale." Some places currently have an Rt below 1, others above 1, and some stable at 1 (which really means it could be just below to just above). Where I'm at, its below 1. There is zero reason to wear a mask outside of a health care setting or in the midst of suspected or confirmed infected people here. Arizona is estimated to have an Rt of 1.1. Brazil's Rt is 0.87, despite the panicked reporting by the news of people dying in the streets. When they talk about methods of transmission, the words "can" repeatedly appear - in a scientific context this is a "anything is possible" word. It is not the same as a "shall," "should," or "may." It has specific scientific meaning rather than its use in the vernacular. They specifically state they have no actual proof that it spreads via aerosol in community settings: "High quality research is required to address the knowledge gaps related to modes of transmission, infectious dose and settings in which transmission can be amplified. Currently, studies are underway to better understand the conditions in which aerosol transmission or superspreading events may occur." They specifically break out mask usage into health care settings separately from community settings. The obvious reason for doing so is *completely* based upon a scientific risk assessment. On masks in community settings: "At present there is only limited and inconsistent scientific evidence to support the effectiveness of masking of healthy people in the community to prevent infection with respiratory viruses, including SARS-CoV-2 (75). A large randomized community-based trial in which 4862 healthy participants were divided into a group wearing medical/surgical masks and a control group found no difference in infection with SARS-CoV-2 (76). A recent systematic review found nine trials (of which eight were cluster-randomized controlled trials in which clusters of people, versus individuals, were randomized) comparing medical/surgical masks versus no masks to prevent the spread of viral respiratory illness. Two trials were with healthcare workers and seven in the community. The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference to the prevention of influenza-like illness (ILI) (RR 0.99, 95%CI 0.82 to 1.18) or laboratory confirmed illness (LCI) (RR 0.91, 95%CI 0.66-1.26) (44); the certainty of the evidence was low for ILI, moderate for LCI." "A number of studies, some peer reviewed (82-86) but most published as pre-prints (87-104), reported a decline in the COVID-19 cases associated with face mask usage by the public, using country- or region-level data. One study reported an association between community mask wearing policy adoption and increased movement (less time at home, increased visits to commercial locations) (105). These studies differed in setting, data sources and statistical methods and have important limitations to consider (106), notably the lack of information about actual exposure risk among individuals, adherence to mask wearing and the enforcement of other preventive measures (107, 108)." They *specifically* are indicating that mask studies aren't high-quality enough to support a scientific finding of fact - they best they have showed no difference. They *specifically* state that in the "any transmission" scenario, you are concerned with only those who are suspected or lab confirmed as having COVID with the purpose of source control: "Anyone suspected or confirmed of having COVID-19, regardless of whether they have symptoms or not, or anyone awaiting viral test results, when in the presence of others - Purpose of Mask Use: Source Control" This is all context that you either don't understand or are willfully ignoring. *YOU* don't get to decide whether or not other people should be wearing masks or social distancing in the absence of clusters of transmission. Your county health department should be maintaining statistics on rate of change of cases - in almost *all* areas of the country, that trend has been downward after the end of cold/flu season. You completely don't understand the difference between 90-year old COPD sufferers in nursing homes vs. healthy adults not in the presence of someone visibly ill. The risks are *vastly* different and this WHO guidance states as much, in determining what to consider regarding masks. Of course they are going to recommend masks be worn by everyone, if all you are concerned with is trying to achieve a zero risk situation. Zero risk situations don't naturally occur. "A mask alone, even when it is used correctly, is insufficient to provide adequate protection or source control." *In those situations where you have a higher risk.* Indoors with no ventilation next to someone who lives with someone who has lab-confirmed COVID? Sure, wear a mask. Outdoors amongst people who *aren't* sick and who aren't first contact exposures to someone who is? The risk is so low that mask wearing makes zero difference. The guidance talks about mask usage - you continue to ignore the caveats and the limits to the scientific evidence. They're saying "we think you should, but we have no proof; in fact, the only scientific evidence that we *do* have that has been confirmed as bias-free shows that they make no difference." This is a "in health care settings, wear all kinds of protective gear, but for the public going about their business, this is really just psychological peace of mind." Lastly, Are you doing the following, all the time, every time? If not, your mask usage will actually be more dangerous than not: -Perform hand hygiene before putting on the mask. -Inspect the mask for tears or holes, and do not use a damaged mask. -Place the mask carefully, ensuring it covers the mouth and nose, adjust to the nose bridge and tie it securely to minimize any gaps between the face and the mask. If using ear loops, ensure these do not cross over as this widens the gap between the face and the mask. -Avoid touching the mask while wearing it. If the mask is accidently touched, perform hand hygiene. -Remove the mask using the appropriate technique. Do not touch the front of the mask, but rather untie it from behind. -Replace the mask as soon as it becomes damp with a new clean, dry mask. -Either discard the mask or place it in a clean plastic resealable bag where it is kept until it can be washed and cleaned. Do not store the mask around the arm or wrist or pull it down to rest around the chin or neck. -Perform hand hygiene immediately afterward discarding a mask. -Do not re-use single-use mask. -Discard single-use masks after each use and properly dispose of them immediately upon removal. -Do not remove the mask to speak. -Do not share your mask with others. -Wash fabric masks in soap or detergent and preferably hot water (at least 60° Centigrade/140° Fahrenheit) at least once a day. If it is not possible to wash the masks in hot water, then wash the mask in soap/detergent and room temperature water, followed by boiling the mask for 1 minute. You're a dumbass. "You've completely ignored all but the first couple of paragraphs" Their conclusions are in those first paragraphs, and it is in more than the first couple. ""Decision makers should apply a risk-based approach when considering the use of masks for the general public. - In areas of known or suspected community or cluster SARS-CoV-2 transmission...
- In any transmission scenarios: Caregivers or those sharing living space with people with suspected or confirmed COVID-19, regardless of symptoms, should wear a medical mask when in the same room." So you do realize that the bolded is literally all of the world right now, right. We suspect Covid of being in every community, because it is. "When they talk about methods of transmission, the words "can" repeatedly appear - in a scientific context this is a "anything is possible" word. It is not the same as a "shall," "should," or "may." It has specific scientific meaning rather than its use in the vernacular." You mean like when they say, "The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference to the prevention of influenza-like illness..." that you are relying on so heavily. The following is also said in the link. "However, the use of a mask alone, even when correctly used (see below), is insufficient to provide an adequate level of protection for an uninfected individual or prevent onward transmission from an infected individual (source control)." Insufficient to all by itself be adequate, not that it provides no protection at all. "The virus can spread from an infected person’s mouth or nose in small liquid particles when the person coughs, sneezes, sings, breathes heavily or talks. These liquid particles are different sizes, ranging from larger ‘respiratory droplets’ to smaller ‘aerosols.’" That was in the Scientific Evidence section and directly contradicts your incorrect reading of them saying that it doesn't spread via aerosols in community settings. The part you quoted didn't say that at all. It simply said that they were doing more research on it. And the following was ignored by you in the paragraph after they said, "The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference..." "By contrast, a small retrospective cohort study from Beijing found that mask use by entire families before the first family member developed COVID-19 symptoms was 79% effective in reducing transmission (OR 0.21, 0.06-0.79) (77). A case control study from Thailand found that wearing a medical or non-medical mask all the time during contact with a COVID19 patient was associated with a 77% lower risk of infection (aOR 0.23; 95% CI 0.09–0.60)" And in the same section a few more paragraphs down. "Studies of influenza, influenza-like illness and human coronaviruses (not including COVID-19) provide evidence that the use of a medical mask can prevent the spread of infectious droplets from a symptomatic infected person to someone else and potential contamination of the environment by these droplets (75)" So you can continue to delude yourself though selective reading, but you're not doing anyone, including yourself, any favors by doing so. Community/cluster transmission is *not* the whole world - it is only where Rt >= 1. You also completely ignore, in the text you quote, the part where the person is infected. Mask wearing by healthy people is not the same as being around people who are infected. Lastly - the Beijing study? It's a retrospective on people in extremely close living conditions with people who are infected. Have you ever been to China? Do you know the cramped living conditions in a typical Beijing apartment? 60 square meters and three generations of the family living there. Vastly different dynamics than the typical American home which is 2-3x the size with a single generation. When you have three or more people sleeping in the same bedroom and communally in a single front room or kitchen, it's different than being able to isolate someone who is sick in their own bedroom.
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Post by kirinke on Apr 10, 2021 17:28:58 GMT
Wear the damned mask 3cat. It protects you from other people's aerosols and it protects other people from your aerosols. It's not rocket science.
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Post by Maxperson on Apr 10, 2021 20:47:20 GMT
You're a dumbass. "You've completely ignored all but the first couple of paragraphs" Their conclusions are in those first paragraphs, and it is in more than the first couple. ""Decision makers should apply a risk-based approach when considering the use of masks for the general public. - In areas of known or suspected community or cluster SARS-CoV-2 transmission...
- In any transmission scenarios: Caregivers or those sharing living space with people with suspected or confirmed COVID-19, regardless of symptoms, should wear a medical mask when in the same room." So you do realize that the bolded is literally all of the world right now, right. We suspect Covid of being in every community, because it is. "When they talk about methods of transmission, the words "can" repeatedly appear - in a scientific context this is a "anything is possible" word. It is not the same as a "shall," "should," or "may." It has specific scientific meaning rather than its use in the vernacular." You mean like when they say, "The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference to the prevention of influenza-like illness..." that you are relying on so heavily. The following is also said in the link. "However, the use of a mask alone, even when correctly used (see below), is insufficient to provide an adequate level of protection for an uninfected individual or prevent onward transmission from an infected individual (source control)." Insufficient to all by itself be adequate, not that it provides no protection at all. "The virus can spread from an infected person’s mouth or nose in small liquid particles when the person coughs, sneezes, sings, breathes heavily or talks. These liquid particles are different sizes, ranging from larger ‘respiratory droplets’ to smaller ‘aerosols.’" That was in the Scientific Evidence section and directly contradicts your incorrect reading of them saying that it doesn't spread via aerosols in community settings. The part you quoted didn't say that at all. It simply said that they were doing more research on it. And the following was ignored by you in the paragraph after they said, "The review concluded that wearing a mask may make little or no difference..." "By contrast, a small retrospective cohort study from Beijing found that mask use by entire families before the first family member developed COVID-19 symptoms was 79% effective in reducing transmission (OR 0.21, 0.06-0.79) (77). A case control study from Thailand found that wearing a medical or non-medical mask all the time during contact with a COVID19 patient was associated with a 77% lower risk of infection (aOR 0.23; 95% CI 0.09–0.60)" And in the same section a few more paragraphs down. "Studies of influenza, influenza-like illness and human coronaviruses (not including COVID-19) provide evidence that the use of a medical mask can prevent the spread of infectious droplets from a symptomatic infected person to someone else and potential contamination of the environment by these droplets (75)" So you can continue to delude yourself though selective reading, but you're not doing anyone, including yourself, any favors by doing so. Community/cluster transmission is *not* the whole world - it is only where Rt >= 1. You also completely ignore, in the text you quote, the part where the person is infected. Mask wearing by healthy people is not the same as being around people who are infected. Lastly - the Beijing study? It's a retrospective on people in extremely close living conditions with people who are infected. Have you ever been to China? Do you know the cramped living conditions in a typical Beijing apartment? 60 square meters and three generations of the family living there. Vastly different dynamics than the typical American home which is 2-3x the size with a single generation. When you have three or more people sleeping in the same bedroom and communally in a single front room or kitchen, it's different than being able to isolate someone who is sick in their own bedroom. More dumbfuckery by you. I didn't ignore anything. Since the vast majority of people are asymptomatic, nobody can be assumed to be healthy, so everyone needs to wear the fucking mask. Shit. Do you try to be this dumb? You also ignored a nearly identical result from Thailand and just focused on China, because you have a pathological need to selectively read only that which you fool yourself into thinking supports your idiocy.
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 10, 2021 21:37:58 GMT
Community/cluster transmission is *not* the whole world - it is only where Rt >= 1. You also completely ignore, in the text you quote, the part where the person is infected. Mask wearing by healthy people is not the same as being around people who are infected. Lastly - the Beijing study? It's a retrospective on people in extremely close living conditions with people who are infected. Have you ever been to China? Do you know the cramped living conditions in a typical Beijing apartment? 60 square meters and three generations of the family living there. Vastly different dynamics than the typical American home which is 2-3x the size with a single generation. When you have three or more people sleeping in the same bedroom and communally in a single front room or kitchen, it's different than being able to isolate someone who is sick in their own bedroom. More dumbfuckery by you. I didn't ignore anything. Since the vast majority of people are asymptomatic, nobody can be assumed to be healthy, so everyone needs to wear the fucking mask. Shit. Do you try to be this dumb? You also ignored a nearly identical result from Thailand and just focused on China, because you have a pathological need to selectively read only that which you fool yourself into thinking supports your idiocy. Let's parse out your idiocy: "Since the vast majority of people are asymptomatic, nobody can be assumed to be healthy, so everyone needs to wear the fucking mask." If the vast majority are allegedly asymptomatic, it follows that the number of infections is many times over the number of official cases counted, thus it follows that the number of deaths is a much smaller percentage, thus it follows that it is no more serious than a bad flu season. q.e.d. "...nobody can be assumed to be healthy..." Symptoms are the benchmark of infection and have been since the germ theory of disease, if not longer. By your changing of the definition of healthy, just go ahead and keep yourself quarantined because you might asymptomatically have ebola, HIV, or bubonic plague. ".. everyone needs to wear..." You are so down the rabbit hole of belief in this being a new black death that you are unable to apply any critical thought to the facts, weigh them against well-established science and medical principles, and make an educated determination of your risk and act accordingly. You *need* this to be an endless pandemic. Without it, you have nothing to blame for your miserable existence.
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Post by Maxperson on Apr 10, 2021 21:59:18 GMT
More dumbfuckery by you. I didn't ignore anything. Since the vast majority of people are asymptomatic, nobody can be assumed to be healthy, so everyone needs to wear the fucking mask. Shit. Do you try to be this dumb? You also ignored a nearly identical result from Thailand and just focused on China, because you have a pathological need to selectively read only that which you fool yourself into thinking supports your idiocy. Let's parse out your idiocy: "Since the vast majority of people are asymptomatic, nobody can be assumed to be healthy, so everyone needs to wear the fucking mask." If the vast majority are allegedly asymptomatic, it follows that the number of infections is many times over the number of official cases counted, thus it follows that the number of deaths is a much smaller percentage, thus it follows that it is no more serious than a bad flu season. q.e.d. "...nobody can be assumed to be healthy..." Symptoms are the benchmark of infection and have been since the germ theory of disease, if not longer. By your changing of the definition of healthy, just go ahead and keep yourself quarantined because you might asymptomatically have ebola, HIV, or bubonic plague. ".. everyone needs to wear..." You are so down the rabbit hole of belief in this being a new black death that you are unable to apply any critical thought to the facts, weigh them against well-established science and medical principles, and make an educated determination of your risk and act accordingly. You *need* this to be an endless pandemic. Without it, you have nothing to blame for your miserable existence. Yes, let's examine your idiocy. "If the vast majority are allegedly asymptomatic, it follows that the number of infections is many times over the number of official cases counted, thus it follows that the number of deaths is a much smaller percentage, thus it follows that the percentage is irrelevant since the only thing that really matters is the massive increase in the number of deaths." Fixed that for you. You can keep repeating the lie that it's no worse than a flu season until you die of old age and you will still never be correct. The facts refute you. "Symptoms are the benchmark of infection and have been since the germ theory of disease, if not longer. By your changing of the definition of healthy, just go ahead and keep yourself quarantined because you might asymptomatically have ebola, HIV, or bubonic plague." Wow! The absolutely pure stupid in that Strawman are astounding, even for you. Ebola, HIV, etc. don't progress in the same way as Covid 19. Covid 19 is unique in that you are contagious both when asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic, AND is ridiculously contagious. That unique combination is what requires the masks on healthy people. Most flus progress to the symptom stage before you become contagious, so it's relatively easy to control the spread. The rest is just your anti-covid echo chamber where you convince yourself that reality is fiction.
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 10, 2021 22:32:28 GMT
Let's parse out your idiocy: "Since the vast majority of people are asymptomatic, nobody can be assumed to be healthy, so everyone needs to wear the fucking mask." If the vast majority are allegedly asymptomatic, it follows that the number of infections is many times over the number of official cases counted, thus it follows that the number of deaths is a much smaller percentage, thus it follows that it is no more serious than a bad flu season. q.e.d. "...nobody can be assumed to be healthy..." Symptoms are the benchmark of infection and have been since the germ theory of disease, if not longer. By your changing of the definition of healthy, just go ahead and keep yourself quarantined because you might asymptomatically have ebola, HIV, or bubonic plague. ".. everyone needs to wear..." You are so down the rabbit hole of belief in this being a new black death that you are unable to apply any critical thought to the facts, weigh them against well-established science and medical principles, and make an educated determination of your risk and act accordingly. You *need* this to be an endless pandemic. Without it, you have nothing to blame for your miserable existence. Yes, let's examine your idiocy. "If the vast majority are allegedly asymptomatic, it follows that the number of infections is many times over the number of official cases counted, thus it follows that the number of deaths is a much smaller percentage, thus it follows that the percentage is irrelevant since the only thing that really matters is the massive increase in the number of deaths." Fixed that for you. You can keep repeating the lie that it's no worse than a flu season until you die of old age and you will still never be correct. The facts refute you. "Symptoms are the benchmark of infection and have been since the germ theory of disease, if not longer. By your changing of the definition of healthy, just go ahead and keep yourself quarantined because you might asymptomatically have ebola, HIV, or bubonic plague." Wow! The absolutely pure stupid in that Strawman are astounding, even for you. Ebola, HIV, etc. don't progress in the same way as Covid 19. Covid 19 is unique in that you are contagious both when asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic, AND is ridiculously contagious. That unique combination is what requires the masks on healthy people. Most flus progress to the symptom stage before you become contagious, so it's relatively easy to control the spread. The rest is just your anti-covid echo chamber where you convince yourself that reality is fiction. I'll try this a different way since you don't understand English. Latest global deaths total are 2.9M. Global case totals are 135M. That makes (2.9÷134)*100= ~ 2%. That is CFR. The lower end for estimates is the true number of infections is 6x the number of confirmed cases with the upper end being 20x. That makes IFR anywhere from 0.35% to 0.1% - a really bad flu season. So, yes, the percentage does matter. Because IFR is the true number of infections and the true number of deaths. We will never know what the IFR is. If the majority of people are asymptomatic, then it follows that we could infect the whole planet and most people wouldn't even know it. You wanna rethink that "most are asymptomatic" now that I've taught you the difference between IFR and CFR...
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