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Post by kirinke on Apr 11, 2021 0:15:19 GMT
Wear the damned mask 3cat. Quit being a whiny, excuse laden baby. Wear the damned mask.
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Post by Maxperson on Apr 11, 2021 2:46:52 GMT
Yes, let's examine your idiocy. "If the vast majority are allegedly asymptomatic, it follows that the number of infections is many times over the number of official cases counted, thus it follows that the number of deaths is a much smaller percentage, thus it follows that the percentage is irrelevant since the only thing that really matters is the massive increase in the number of deaths." Fixed that for you. You can keep repeating the lie that it's no worse than a flu season until you die of old age and you will still never be correct. The facts refute you. "Symptoms are the benchmark of infection and have been since the germ theory of disease, if not longer. By your changing of the definition of healthy, just go ahead and keep yourself quarantined because you might asymptomatically have ebola, HIV, or bubonic plague." Wow! The absolutely pure stupid in that Strawman are astounding, even for you. Ebola, HIV, etc. don't progress in the same way as Covid 19. Covid 19 is unique in that you are contagious both when asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic, AND is ridiculously contagious. That unique combination is what requires the masks on healthy people. Most flus progress to the symptom stage before you become contagious, so it's relatively easy to control the spread. The rest is just your anti-covid echo chamber where you convince yourself that reality is fiction. I'll try this a different way since you don't understand English. Latest global deaths total are 2.9M. Global case totals are 135M. That makes (2.9÷134)*100= ~ 2%. That is CFR. The lower end for estimates is the true number of infections is 6x the number of confirmed cases with the upper end being 20x. That makes IFR anywhere from 0.35% to 0.1% - a really bad flu season. So, yes, the percentage does matter. Because IFR is the true number of infections and the true number of deaths. We will never know what the IFR is. If the majority of people are asymptomatic, then it follows that we could infect the whole planet and most people wouldn't even know it. You wanna rethink that "most are asymptomatic" now that I've taught you the difference between IFR and CFR... Blah, blah, blah. Percentage is irrelevant. The number of deaths increased significantly, which means that no matter how low the percentage, because of infection rate, DEATHS HAVE INCREASED. Say it with me. DEATHS HAVE INCREASED. Covid is worse than any flu, not because of the death percentage, but because of ease of transmissibility. .5% of a billion is a lot worse than 2% of a million. We already know that the annual deaths for 2020 were significantly higher than average. |
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Post by kirinke on Apr 11, 2021 22:57:17 GMT
And the flu doesn't cause the side effects that Covid-19 does.
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zappo
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Post by zappo on Apr 12, 2021 7:30:21 GMT
FWIW, I have Covid19 right now. I'm 40. It won't kill me and it doesn't feel like it's doing permanent damage, but it's not the flu. For the first week, it felt like I had a new symptom every day - fever, sore throat, cough, itchy eyes, headache, frequent urination, gastrointestinal issues (I never lost smell and taste, though). It's been almost three weeks and I'm much better, but I'm still not clear. This is considered a rather mild case, and I agree (I know people who've had it bad), but it still sucks donkey balls. It's also causing me some business problems as I'm having to postpone trips.
I know exactly where I got it, though they won't admit it; it's the only place I visited in 10 days before symptoms, a work trip, and I know at least one other person who got it after being there. There was one guy who kept removing his mask to speak, and another who kept it below the nose.
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Post by kirinke on Apr 12, 2021 11:20:10 GMT
Hope you get to feeling better Zappo. I wouldn't want anybody to get sick with this shit. Keep an eye on things, but I suppose your doctor is helping you with that.
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zappo
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Post by zappo on Apr 12, 2021 13:51:28 GMT
Thanks! I'll be fine. Right now, I'm physically mostly fine, and the isolation is the most annoying thing - but I'd feel horrible if I gave this to someone, so I'm happy doing that. The point is, anecdotal of course, but still: I'm fit, healthy, barely middle-aged, and I've had flus and colds before, just like anyone else, and I can say from first-hand experience that 1) this is not the flu, and 2) you most definitely can get it just from being in the same room for twenty minutes with someone who has absolutely no symptoms, because that's how I got it.
Who knows, maybe I'd have gotten it anyway even if the guys had been wearing masks correctly: these things are all probabilistic, and there's no limit to how unlucky you can be. But the chance would have been a lot lower.
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 12, 2021 15:30:15 GMT
Thanks! I'll be fine. Right now, I'm physically mostly fine, and the isolation is the most annoying thing - but I'd feel horrible if I gave this to someone, so I'm happy doing that. The point is, anecdotal of course, but still: I'm fit, healthy, barely middle-aged, and I've had flus and colds before, just like anyone else, and I can say from first-hand experience that 1) this is not the flu, and 2) you most definitely can get it just from being in the same room for twenty minutes with someone who has absolutely no symptoms, because that's how I got it. Who knows, maybe I'd have gotten it anyway even if the guys had been wearing masks correctly: these things are all probabilistic, and there's no limit to how unlucky you can be. But the chance would have been a lot lower. So - you didn't immediately end up dying in the hospital, as kirinke and Maxperson continue to Bruce ?!?! Say it ain't so... Yes, it sucks; no no one wants to get it; but 99% of those infected recover, with 30+% not even knowing they had it to begin with. Ebola, this is not. Anecdotally, of course, I assume you were inside a confined space with improper ventilation. Probabilistic risk assessment, as I keep *trying* to get through their thick heads... |
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Post by Maxperson on Apr 12, 2021 18:25:38 GMT
Thanks! I'll be fine. Right now, I'm physically mostly fine, and the isolation is the most annoying thing - but I'd feel horrible if I gave this to someone, so I'm happy doing that. The point is, anecdotal of course, but still: I'm fit, healthy, barely middle-aged, and I've had flus and colds before, just like anyone else, and I can say from first-hand experience that 1) this is not the flu, and 2) you most definitely can get it just from being in the same room for twenty minutes with someone who has absolutely no symptoms, because that's how I got it. Who knows, maybe I'd have gotten it anyway even if the guys had been wearing masks correctly: these things are all probabilistic, and there's no limit to how unlucky you can be. But the chance would have been a lot lower. So - you didn't immediately end up dying in the hospital, as kirinke and Maxperson continue to Bruce ?!?! Say it ain't so... Yes, it sucks; no no one wants to get it; but 99% of those infected recover, with 30+% not even knowing they had it to begin with. Ebola, this is not. Anecdotally, of course, I assume you were inside a confined space with improper ventilation. Probabilistic risk assessment, as I keep *trying* to get through their thick heads... Say it with me, "I will continue to Strawman Max and Kirinke and hit them with every fallacy I can, since my position is bunk otherwise." "Anecdotally, of course, I assume you were inside a confined space with improper ventilation. Probabilistic risk assessment, as I keep *trying* to get through their thick heads..." Imagine that! Not taking the proper precautions, which according to the CDC and WHO involve wearing a mask, results in infection if someone with Covid is nearby. It's almost like you got riiiiiiiiiiiiight up to the point where people would understand that and then got retarded again. No, wait, that's exactly what you did. |
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zappo
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Post by zappo on Apr 12, 2021 18:35:50 GMT
I was in a very large space (a factory floor). It had a complicated layout and we moved around, and ventilation conditions varied. Sticking to well-ventilated areas, or having everyone wearing masks properly, or washing hands even more often, any of these might have prevented me from being infected. There's no way to know: cause-effect cannot be determined for individual cases, but only statistically (and even that is tough).
That's the point really; you don't know what will save you specifically in that specific circumstance, so all you can do is lower the number, even though you can't make it zero.
It's not ebola - if it was, I'd outright refuse jobs that require trips, so would everyone else, and the entire economy would collapse. But it's not the flu either, where if you are sick but you just take paracetamol and go anyway, nobody blames you too much. There's a wide, wide gulf between those two. Covid19 sits a fairly long way from both.
I think the current measures are well justified. I don't have to feel threatened with death to take serious containment measures; honestly, a couple weeks of feeling like crap, with a not-small-enough chance of being several months (it happened to two otherwise healthy acquaintances), is bad enough.
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 12, 2021 20:51:36 GMT
So - you didn't immediately end up dying in the hospital, as kirinke and Maxperson continue to Bruce ?!?! Say it ain't so... Yes, it sucks; no no one wants to get it; but 99% of those infected recover, with 30+% not even knowing they had it to begin with. Ebola, this is not. Anecdotally, of course, I assume you were inside a confined space with improper ventilation. Probabilistic risk assessment, as I keep *trying* to get through their thick heads... Say it with me, "I will continue to Strawman Max and Kirinke and hit them with every fallacy I can, since my position is bunk otherwise." "Anecdotally, of course, I assume you were inside a confined space with improper ventilation. Probabilistic risk assessment, as I keep *trying* to get through their thick heads..." Imagine that! Not taking the proper precautions, which according to the CDC and WHO involve wearing a mask, results in infection if someone with Covid is nearby. It's almost like you got riiiiiiiiiiiiight up to the point where people would understand that and then got retarded again. No, wait, that's exactly what you did. No stupid, you don't understand how to do a proper risk assessment. Outdoors - no masks are needed unless you are within 6 ft of a known or suspected covid sufferer (and no, a random person in public is not a suspect). Indoors without proper ventilation you should be wearing a mask. *Most* indoor environments do not meet ventilation requirements. How hard is this for you understand? A risk assessment needs to be performed - the general public is *not* a suspected covid sufferer, no matter how much you want it to be so. By your (lack of) reasoning, anyone can be suspected of having any infection at any and all times. "Wear a mask, they might have the consumption." |
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Post by Maxperson on Apr 12, 2021 22:11:02 GMT
Say it with me, "I will continue to Strawman Max and Kirinke and hit them with every fallacy I can, since my position is bunk otherwise." "Anecdotally, of course, I assume you were inside a confined space with improper ventilation. Probabilistic risk assessment, as I keep *trying* to get through their thick heads..." Imagine that! Not taking the proper precautions, which according to the CDC and WHO involve wearing a mask, results in infection if someone with Covid is nearby. It's almost like you got riiiiiiiiiiiiight up to the point where people would understand that and then got retarded again. No, wait, that's exactly what you did. No stupid, you don't understand how to do a proper risk assessment. Outdoors - no masks are needed unless you are within 6 ft of a known or suspected covid sufferer (and no, a random person in public is not a suspect). Indoors without proper ventilation you should be wearing a mask. *Most* indoor environments do not meet ventilation requirements. How hard is this for you understand? A risk assessment needs to be performed - the general public is *not* a suspected covid sufferer, no matter how much you want it to be so. By your (lack of) reasoning, anyone can be suspected of having any infection at any and all times. "Wear a mask, they might have the consumption." Do you not reed eglush wel? WHO said that masks are only PART of what is needed and that they can't do it alone. Nowhere did they say or imply that you were fine without a mask indoors with proper ventilation. |
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Post by kirinke on Apr 12, 2021 23:40:25 GMT
They said to social distance, practice proper hygiene, wear a mask (properly) and get fucking vaccinated. My personal addition is: The safest bet is always assume the asshole next to you is infected and act accordingly.
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zappo
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Post by zappo on Apr 13, 2021 5:44:07 GMT
(and no, a random person in public is not a suspect). I'm bowing out of the conversation after this as I just wanted to relate my story, but I just feel the need to make sure the following bit is clear. I must have gotten covid that day at the factory, because it was 5 days before first symptoms, and I hadn't left home in the five days before or after the trip. And everybody who was at the factory that day looked perfectly healthy. Someone might have been hiding symptoms, I suppose. But if the question is, what measures I should take around healthy-looking strangers, then that makes no difference, as I (obviously) can't trust random strangers not to hide symptoms if they have them. Make of that what you will: anecdote, and all that. But, as far as I am concerned, transmission from asymptomatic carriers, to a non-immunocompromised subject, is a personally verified fact.
I don't know how I got it, and I don't know what measures would have prevented it, but I definitely got it from a random healthy-looking stranger.
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 14, 2021 12:08:16 GMT
(and no, a random person in public is not a suspect). I'm bowing out of the conversation after this as I just wanted to relate my story, but I just feel the need to make sure the following bit is clear. I must have gotten covid that day at the factory, because it was 5 days before first symptoms, and I hadn't left home in the five days before or after the trip. And everybody who was at the factory that day looked perfectly healthy. Someone might have been hiding symptoms, I suppose. But if the question is, what measures I should take around healthy-looking strangers, then that makes no difference, as I (obviously) can't trust random strangers not to hide symptoms if they have them. Make of that what you will: anecdote, and all that. But, as far as I am concerned, transmission from asymptomatic carriers, to a non-immunocompromised subject, is a personally verified fact.
I don't know how I got it, and I don't know what measures would have prevented it, but I definitely got it from a random healthy-looking stranger.
So, it sounds like the mask made little to no difference, which is pretty much right in line with the results of this study: www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817Which begs the question - if you *did* catch it at the factory, what is the primary factor? It obviously isn't wearing a mask since you caught it anyway. If it was someone else carrying it who was wearing a mask, then it needs asking because of the argument that common masks worn by the public won't stop a viral particle smaller than the mask weave (unless it is a properly fitted and worn N95, it's not going to prevent you from giving or getting covid), and that the masks worn by the public actually aerosolizes exhalate that would otherwise be large enough droplets to drop out of the airstream within a short distance of the exhaling person's nose and mouth. One area to look at is the percentage of people catching covid who are breathing through their mouth instead of their nose (and that the use of masks tends to increase the amount of mouth breathing by the wearer) because of the nose's inherent ability to filter out contaminants (for example, we didn't discover until 1995 that the paranasal sinuses actually generate Nitric Oxide at levels more than sufficient to act as an anti-microbial, and that cystic fibrosis sufferers have extremely low levels of NO generation leading to chronic sinusitis). If it was someone wearing a mask incorrectly, then it further illustrates my point that masks are counterproductive because an untrained wearer is more of a risk than not wearing one at all. Other factors to consider: Did you touch any surfaces and then not wash your hands before touching a mucus membrane? While fomite infection is rare, someone infected touching a mucus membrane and then leaving residue swarming with virus on a touch surface is still a common occurrence. Is it possible you caught it *before* visiting the factory that day? We know that it can take up to 2 weeks to show symptoms, and that people are most infectious in the 24-48 hrs prior to showing symptoms. Is yours the less common case of airborne transmission where you walked through a cloud lingering hours after someone else generated it? Lots of possibilities - and as you confirmed, totally probablistic. |
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Post by 3catcircus on Apr 14, 2021 12:20:23 GMT
They said to social distance, practice proper hygiene, wear a mask (properly) and get fucking vaccinated. My personal addition is: The safest bet is always assume the asshole next to you is infected and act accordingly. And there's the problem. Who is "they" and why are you so willing to follow "their" guidance with blind obedience? I'm betting that if Fauci recommended people smear dogshit all over themselves, you'd be following around dog owners all day long. This isn't a hard concept: trust but verify. Maintain a questioning attitude. Read and understand scientific publications instead of listening to newsreaders and talking head pundits who are only expert at self-promotion. |
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