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Post by Maxperson on May 13, 2022 14:48:36 GMT
Oh dearAmerica takes another step toward a one-party evangelical theocracy thanks to Republican pet judges, and against the wishes of 70% of Americans. It's time to dissolve the Senate and give power to the regional Moffs, Joe. Even RBG said that Roe was a mistake and it was a states' rights issue. The original justices overstepped and basically amended the Constitution on their own and now that egregious decision might be overturned and sent to where it belongs. With the states.
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Post by Maxperson on May 13, 2022 14:51:09 GMT
Until it's viable, it's not a person. I assume you have objective science supporting that it's not a person at that point, and that it's not just your opinion on when personhood starts. I'd like to see that objective evidence.
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Post by cyphersmith on May 13, 2022 16:12:41 GMT
Until it's viable, it's not a person. I assume you have objective science supporting that it's not a person at that point, and that it's not just your opinion on when personhood starts. I'd like to see that objective evidence. Yes. Here it is.
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Post by cyphersmith on May 13, 2022 16:24:06 GMT
Oh dearAmerica takes another step toward a one-party evangelical theocracy thanks to Republican pet judges, and against the wishes of 70% of Americans. It's time to dissolve the Senate and give power to the regional Moffs, Joe. Even RBG said that Roe was a mistake and it was a states' rights issue. The original justices overstepped and basically amended the Constitution on their own and now that egregious decision might be overturned and sent to where it belongs. With the states. That's a complete misunderstanding of her position. Here is something that is better. And because it's the Washington Post, here's the text:
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Post by Maxperson on May 13, 2022 19:22:21 GMT
I assume you have objective science supporting that it's not a person at that point, and that it's not just your opinion on when personhood starts. I'd like to see that objective evidence. Yes. Here it is. Then we are on the same page! You've shown me nothing there, so you acknowledge that there is no science supporting your statement.
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Post by Maxperson on May 13, 2022 19:35:17 GMT
Here is something not the biased Washington Post that is clearer. www.law.uchicago.edu/news/justice-ruth-bader-ginsburg-offers-critique-roe-v-wade-during-law-school-visitSpecifics. "“My criticism of Roe is that it seemed to have stopped the momentum on the side of change,” Ginsburg said. She would’ve preferred that abortion rights be secured more gradually, in a process that included state legislatures and the courts, she added. Ginsburg also was troubled that the focus on Roe was on a right to privacy, rather than women’s rights." Includes the state legislatures is another way of saying that it's a states' rights issue. State legislatures are not involved in Federal issues. And more... "In response to a student question about what would happen if Roe were overturned now, Ginsburg said the effect would largely be restricted to poor women in anti-choice states. Many states would never outlaw abortion, and wealthier women will always be able to travel to those states, she pointed out." Why would overturning Roe allow states to outlaw abortions if it were a Federal issue? The answer is that it wouldn't, because she understood that it was a states' rights issue. That's why she wanted to slowly guide states to change. And more... "Brittany Gorin, ’15, asked Ginsburg what advice she has for young women taking up the mantle of the women’s rights movement. Ginsburg expressed disappointment that many young women shy away from the word “feminist” as if it is a foul word, and the fact that young women aren’t pushing for the passage of the Equal Rights Amendment. She reminded the young women in the audience that they were lucky to have many opportunities that many women do not have. Women must work to ensure that all women have better opportunities, she said." Why would women need to push for an Equal Rights Amendment(to the Constitution)? The answer is again that RBG understood that the Federal government doesn't have power over this issue. That authority is reserved for the states.
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Post by kirinke on May 14, 2022 11:39:53 GMT
My problem with anti-abortionists is the hypocrisy. They are all "for the children" until that child is born, then they don't give two shits about the mother or the child. Hell, they're willing to let kids starve while in detention, out of sheer cruelty.
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Post by Maxperson on May 14, 2022 14:54:28 GMT
My problem with anti-abortionists is the hypocrisy. They are all "for the children" until that child is born, then they don't give two shits about the mother or the child. Hell, they're willing to let kids starve while in detention, out of sheer cruelty. There is no hypocrisy. It's not about children in general. It's about not murdering people. In this case kids. The "hypocrisy" argument is just a Strawman built up by the other side, in the same way that the right has built up the Strawman argument that the pro choice side is "pro child murder."
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Post by evileeyore on May 14, 2022 16:06:04 GMT
My problem with anti-abortionists is the hypocrisy. They are all "for the children" until that child is born, then they don't give two shits about the mother or the child. Hell, they're willing to let kids starve while in detention, out of sheer cruelty. My problem with pro-abortionists is the hypocrisy. They are all "for the mother's right to kill her child" until that child is born, then they don't give two shits about the mother or the child. Hell, they're willing to let kids run rampant and turn into little hoodlums that others have to deal with, out of sheer cruelty.
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Post by evileeyore on May 14, 2022 16:19:39 GMT
I assume you have objective science supporting that it's not a person at that point, and that it's not just your opinion on when personhood starts. I'd like to see that objective evidence. Yes. Here it is. Oh yeah, a heavily biased editorial on "Do Babies Dream of Fluffy Sheep" (that they have yet to even see*). Yeah, okay it leans on some science but refuses to go near the question, so if it's okay in the author's opinion (presumably*) to murder sleeping unborn babies, why isn't okay to murder sleeping born babies? Or adults? * And there's the wrinkle. Even the author acknowledges the baby's REM sleep might be dreams. But they immediately shy away from having made that question lest it provoke a "negative to abortion" response in the reader. No, no, best not to have dear reader think about the moral implications of crushing those dreams with a pair of forceps.
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Post by Maxperson on May 14, 2022 16:38:37 GMT
Oh yeah, a heavily biased editorial on "Do Babies Dream of Fluffy Sheep" (that they have yet to even see*). Yeah, okay it leans on some science but refuses to go near the question, so if it's okay in the author's opinion (presumably*) to murder sleeping unborn babies, why isn't okay to murder sleeping born babies? Or adults? * And there's the wrinkle. Even the author acknowledges the baby's REM sleep might be dreams. But they immediately shy away from having made that question lest it provoke a "negative to abortion" response in the reader. No, no, best not to have dear reader think about the moral implications of crushing those dreams with a pair of forceps. Consciousness isn't even relevant to my question, though. Science can answer when brain waves begin, when heartbeats begin, when fingers and toes develop, etc, but all those things prove are when those things begin. There is no science that proves when life begins. So what we have are people who are arbitrarily declaring these milestones as when life begins, based on feels. "I feel it begins at viability" or "I feel it begins at the heartbeat" or "I feel it begins at conception." I personally feel that it begins at conception, because I can draw a line from the moment of conception all the way to death by old age and there is no place that I can break that line without ending that life. Barring natural disaster(miscarriage, accident or something) or deliberate ending, that life will happen.
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Post by cyphersmith on May 14, 2022 18:00:20 GMT
Oh yeah, a heavily biased editorial on "Do Babies Dream of Fluffy Sheep" (that they have yet to even see*). Yeah, okay it leans on some science but refuses to go near the question, so if it's okay in the author's opinion (presumably*) to murder sleeping unborn babies, why isn't okay to murder sleeping born babies? Or adults? * And there's the wrinkle. Even the author acknowledges the baby's REM sleep might be dreams. But they immediately shy away from having made that question lest it provoke a "negative to abortion" response in the reader. No, no, best not to have dear reader think about the moral implications of crushing those dreams with a pair of forceps. Consciousness isn't even relevant to my question, though. Science can answer when brain waves begin, when heartbeats begin, when fingers and toes develop, etc, but all those things prove are when those things begin. There is no science that proves when life begins. So what we have are people who are arbitrarily declaring these milestones as when life begins, based on feels. "I feel it begins at viability" or "I feel it begins at the heartbeat" or "I feel it begins at conception." I personally feel that it begins at conception, because I can draw a line from the moment of conception all the way to death by old age and there is no place that I can break that line without ending that life. Barring natural disaster(miscarriage, accident or something) or deliberate ending, that life will happen. I really don't think that's a viable point. That "natural disaster" happens fairly often. We really don't know how often, honestly, but we have some idea from how often IVF fails, and miscarriage rates. IVF failure rates are dependent on many things, such as age, reason for infertility, etc. But the failure rate is very high. Making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortion. Never has, never will. It just makes life hard for the poor and lower to middle middle class. The rest of the women will be able to get an abortion when they want, because they will have the ability to travel to where they can get it legally. For those who don't have that capability, they will try things that are much riskier. Which will cause them physical harm. Women will die as a result of this. Making it illegal isn't and never has been the answer. The actual answer is education and access. Education about sex and contraceptives, and how to use those contraceptives. Access to those contraceptives and to abortion. The places with those things have much lower abortion rates. Further, there are proposals that aren't allowing medical exceptions for abortion. Ectopic pregnancy? Too bad, you can't abort it. Non-viable fetus for whatever reason? Too bad. Etc. There are even proposals that not only don't include medical exceptions but specifically disallow abortions for medical reasons. That's fucking ridiculous.
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Post by Maxperson on May 14, 2022 18:15:30 GMT
Consciousness isn't even relevant to my question, though. Science can answer when brain waves begin, when heartbeats begin, when fingers and toes develop, etc, but all those things prove are when those things begin. There is no science that proves when life begins. So what we have are people who are arbitrarily declaring these milestones as when life begins, based on feels. "I feel it begins at viability" or "I feel it begins at the heartbeat" or "I feel it begins at conception." I personally feel that it begins at conception, because I can draw a line from the moment of conception all the way to death by old age and there is no place that I can break that line without ending that life. Barring natural disaster(miscarriage, accident or something) or deliberate ending, that life will happen. I really don't think that's a viable point. That "natural disaster" happens fairly often. We really don't know how often, honestly, but we have some idea from how often IVF fails, and miscarriage rates. IVF failure rates are dependent on many things, such as age, reason for infertility, etc. But the failure rate is very high. Making abortion illegal doesn't stop abortion. Never has, never will. It just makes life hard for the poor and lower to middle middle class. The rest of the women will be able to get an abortion when they want, because they will have the ability to travel to where they can get it legally. For those who don't have that capability, they will try things that are much riskier. Which will cause them physical harm. Women will die as a result of this. Making it illegal isn't and never has been the answer. The actual answer is education and access. Education about sex and contraceptives, and how to use those contraceptives. Access to those contraceptives and to abortion. The places with those things have much lower abortion rates. Further, there are proposals that aren't allowing medical exceptions for abortion. Ectopic pregnancy? Too bad, you can't abort it. Non-viable fetus for whatever reason? Too bad. Etc. There are even proposals that not only don't include medical exceptions but specifically disallow abortions for medical reasons. That's fucking ridiculous. To your first paragraph. Of course it's a viable point. It doesn't matter how often nature prevents a pregnancy from taking or ends one early, that doesn't make it okay to deliberately end a life. Bringing up natural failure rates is a Red Herring. You aren't going to abort a pregnancy that has failed naturally. To the second paragraph. So what if making abortion illegal doesn't stop it. Making murder illegal has never stopped murder and also never will. People doing something illegal anyway is not a good reason to make it legal. If it was, literally nothing would be illegal. To the third paragraph. It isn't being made illegal in the red states because they just feel like stopping it. They are making it illegal because they view it as murder. From that viewpoint it makes perfect sense to make it illegal just as any other murder is illegal. Education is part of the solution to unwanted pregnancies, but giving access to abortion is quite literally the worst possible thing you can do if you view abortion as murder and want to stop those murders. You don't legalize murder and then try to teach people not to engage in it. You make it illegal and enact severe punishments, and ALSO teach people not to engage in it. You are approaching this from the viewpoint that it's not murder, and so your solutions fall short. As to your last paragraph. That's bad and I disagree with it. If the mother's life is in danger, she should be able to save her life, even if it means the death of the child. Sometimes bad shit happens and you can't expect someone to suicide just because abortion has been such an intense topic for so long and you are overreacting.
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Post by kirinke on May 14, 2022 20:07:08 GMT
You just don't like kids that are already here. Gotcha.
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Post by Maxperson on May 15, 2022 0:49:53 GMT
You just don't like kids that are already here. Gotcha. Red Herrings are fish! Kids here are not relevant to the pro-life position, which is specifically and ONLY about infanticide.
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