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Post by 3catcircus on May 26, 2022 0:22:56 GMT
Is *anyone* surprised that the recent shooter is cut from the same cloth as Parkland and Sandy Hook, or that the school resource officer apparently did nothing to stop him?
Drug addict mother. Absentee father. Known to the police from prior domestic incidents. Wrote about his plan online hours beforehand.
At the very least, that school resource officer needs to be fired and whoever saw his online post and did not alert the law needs to be charged. How fucking hard is it to look up the local Uvalde PD and call them right away?
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Post by libtard on May 26, 2022 5:50:33 GMT
Is *anyone* surprised that the recent shooter is cut from the same cloth as Parkland and Sandy Hook, or that the school resource officer apparently did nothing to stop him? Drug addict mother. Absentee father. Known to the police from prior domestic incidents. Wrote about his plan online hours beforehand. At the very least, that school resource officer needs to be fired and whoever saw his online post and did not alert the law needs to be charged. How fucking hard is it to look up the local Uvalde PD and call them right away? It's almost as though letting fucked-up kids buy semi-automatic rifles on their 18th birthday could be a problem. |
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Post by 3catcircus on May 26, 2022 10:52:50 GMT
Is *anyone* surprised that the recent shooter is cut from the same cloth as Parkland and Sandy Hook, or that the school resource officer apparently did nothing to stop him? Drug addict mother. Absentee father. Known to the police from prior domestic incidents. Wrote about his plan online hours beforehand. At the very least, that school resource officer needs to be fired and whoever saw his online post and did not alert the law needs to be charged. How fucking hard is it to look up the local Uvalde PD and call them right away? It's almost as though letting fucked-up kids buy semi-automatic rifles on their 18th birthday could be a problem. So your take is it's the guns? As opposed to not having a school lock it's doors or have a competent school resource officer? Or that it took Facebook a few seconds to censor anti-vax postings but they didn't do anything in the half hour between this shitbag's post and when he started his apeshittery? Or that the cops knew who he was from previous encounters where he was violent to his drug addict "mother" and didn't throw him in juvenile hall? Or that, I don't know, maybe the fact that we essentially shut down all the mental hospitals and have had a vast increase in apeshitters ever since? |
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Post by libtard on May 26, 2022 12:21:35 GMT
It's almost as though letting fucked-up kids buy semi-automatic rifles on their 18th birthday could be a problem. So your take is it's the guns? As opposed to not having a school lock it's doors or have a competent school resource officer? Or that it took Facebook a few seconds to censor anti-vax postings but they didn't do anything in the half hour between this shitbag's post and when he started his apeshittery? Or that the cops knew who he was from previous encounters where he was violent to his drug addict "mother" and didn't throw him in juvenile hall? Or that, I don't know, maybe the fact that we essentially shut down all the mental hospitals and have had a vast increase in apeshitters ever since? It’s not just the guns. Canadians and Finns have very high levels of gun ownership and don’t suffer from this problem. It’s the combination of ease of access to guns, shitty (mental) healthcare, shitty education, enculturation, lack of opportunities, and a generally dysfunctional, inequitable society. You need to get your punk kids off the streets and enforce some kind of civic service- to start. |
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Post by 3catcircus on May 26, 2022 13:34:29 GMT
So your take is it's the guns? As opposed to not having a school lock it's doors or have a competent school resource officer? Or that it took Facebook a few seconds to censor anti-vax postings but they didn't do anything in the half hour between this shitbag's post and when he started his apeshittery? Or that the cops knew who he was from previous encounters where he was violent to his drug addict "mother" and didn't throw him in juvenile hall? Or that, I don't know, maybe the fact that we essentially shut down all the mental hospitals and have had a vast increase in apeshitters ever since? It’s not just the guns. Canadians and Finns have very high levels of gun ownership and don’t suffer from this problem. It’s the combination of ease of access to guns, shitty (mental) healthcare, shitty education, enculturation, lack of opportunities, and a generally dysfunctional, inequitable society. You need to get your punk kids off the streets and enforce some kind of civic service- to start. So therefore, you agree it's not the guns since that is a common denominator with Canada, Finland, and Switzerland. It's definitely the moral decay of the US as the cause, but in lieu of fixing society, would you not agree that having schools lock their doors and having resource officers whose first instinct isn't to run away would be a good starting point? That, and having a law enforcement response that didn't consist of milling about outside. It happened here, at Parkland, and at Sandy Hook. A half-assed plan violently executed right away is always better than waiting until you have a perfect plan, while the apeshitter continued to kill people. Additionally, the current active shooter training is dogshit. Cowering in a darkened classroom behind a maybe-locked door is nowhere near as effective as locking the door and then breaking a window and climbing out. The *only* thing that matters is getting as far away as possible and putting as much hard structure as possible between you and the shooter. |
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Post by libtard on May 26, 2022 14:24:55 GMT
It’s not just the guns. Canadians and Finns have very high levels of gun ownership and don’t suffer from this problem. It’s the combination of ease of access to guns, shitty (mental) healthcare, shitty education, enculturation, lack of opportunities, and a generally dysfunctional, inequitable society. You need to get your punk kids off the streets and enforce some kind of civic service- to start. So therefore, you agree it's not the guns since that is a common denominator with Canada, Finland, and Switzerland. Manifestly, it is not only the guns, otherwise these countries would suffer from the same problems. Equally manifestly, it would not be possible without the guns. I'm not sure what you mean by "moral decay," as Canada, Switzerland and Finland have broadly been subject to the same social forces as the US in the last generation or two; except, of course, social democracy is much more embedded in all of the other countries. Which is, to say, they are capitalist countries with some socialist policies. Nor are they countries which exalt a national mythology of gun ownership and use. If it could be accomplished (funding, training, consistent follow-through and accountability), sure. But it's hard to see it enacted on anything other than the federal level. And although it might go some way to addressing school shootings, it wouldn't help when white supremacists go off the rails and start shooting up black people in grocery stores in Buffalo. Unfortunately, there are lots of crazy Americans who have guns and are too willing to use them. Better to just take them away, as you consistently demonstrate that you can't be trusted with them. |
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Post by 3catcircus on May 26, 2022 15:53:16 GMT
So therefore, you agree it's not the guns since that is a common denominator with Canada, Finland, and Switzerland. Manifestly, it is not only the guns, otherwise these countries would suffer from the same problems. Equally manifestly, it would not be possible without the guns. I'm not sure what you mean by "moral decay," as Canada, Switzerland and Finland have broadly been subject to the same social forces as the US in the last generation or two; except, of course, social democracy is much more embedded in all of the other countries. Which is, to say, they are capitalist countries with some socialist policies. Nor are they countries which exalt a national mythology of gun ownership and use. If it could be accomplished (funding, training, consistent follow-through and accountability), sure. But it's hard to see it enacted on anything other than the federal level. And although it might go some way to addressing school shootings, it wouldn't help when white supremacists go off the rails and start shooting up black people in grocery stores in Buffalo. Unfortunately, there are lots of crazy Americans who have guns and are too willing to use them. Better to just take them away, as you consistently demonstrate that you can't be trusted with them. It's not the gun - it's what's in the head of the apeshitter. Take away guns, and they'll use knives. Take away knives, and they'll use bombs. Take away bomb making material, and they'll use vehicles... |
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Post by evileeyore on May 26, 2022 17:43:52 GMT
It’s not just the guns. Canadians and Finns have very high levels of gun ownership and don’t suffer from this problem. The gun is the tool, not the cause. Bingo. Compulsory military service. I agree. I'm not sure what you mean by "moral decay," as... Really? It's 3cat, you know exactly what he means. Don't play coy. Not really. There has been a vast push in the US to increase racial hatred and class inequality and to spark those feelings to keep the plebs from noticing the globalist corporatism that's been taking over the government. Add on to that the vast inequality between ethnic lines that has been generational... yeah, those other countries do not have the same social pressure. You've clearly never paid attention to the Fins. However, in their case the mythos isn't "anti-gubermint" in's anti- Soviet. They have a culture of responsibility and preparedness against a foreign power, where we have a culture of "ownership in case Monarchy [totalitariansim] accidentally springs up here again", which unfortunately has not bred a commiserate level of responsibility. As well having zero impact on the southside of Chicago... I knew you were against Black Empowerment. |
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Post by libtard on May 26, 2022 19:31:21 GMT
It’s not just the guns. Canadians and Finns have very high levels of gun ownership and don’t suffer from this problem. The gun is the tool, not the cause. It doesn't really matter. By taking away the tool, you prevent the effect. That could certainly be one route. Other forms of civil service should also be available. But fundamentally it is about teaching citizenship, and the responsibilities which that entails. If he doesn't mean the erosion of the nuclear family, changing gender roles, the need for professional mobility, the need for two incomes to raise a family etc etc,. then no, I'm not sure what he means. The point is that Finland, Canada and Switzerland have all undergone these changes; the difference is that as countries with a different social contract between their government and citizens, they have absorbed these changes much more comfortably. You's expect the liberal, morally degenerate, socialist countries to be more violent otherwise, right? Unless 3catcircus is taking about the blacks and the browns and the yellows; after all, the USA isn't ethnically homogenous in the same way. All though I'm not sure how that would explain White kids in small town America shooting up White kids in their local schools. Maybe 3cat can enlighten us. I've paid a lot of attention to the Finns. I used to live there, and my first wife was half-Finnish. And one thing they do not do is make a big fuss about guns. Self-defense is not a valid reason for having a gun, and proofs of use (hunting, shooting clubs etc,) need to be rendered. Regardless, Finns are much more civically-minded than Americans, and take their responsibilities quite seriously. And yes, their entire military doctrine for the past 70 years has been about preparedness for Russian invasion. And part of me hopes that Putin will try (well, not really) because Ukraine would look like a cake-walk compared to Finland - all forests and choke-points. Did you know that they keep sections of their highways to a standard where fighter jets can use them as runways? They build their bridges with holes for explosives already included... |
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Post by kirinke on May 26, 2022 23:56:45 GMT
18 year old fucking kids should not have access to high powered weaponry. Especially if they're already known to be bug-shit nuts. Fuck all, the morons are already trotting out the tired old excuses, like it's moral decay, video games, anything but the cold hard truth. It's too fucking easy for crazy people of whatever flavor to get their hands on high powered weaponry. I just don't get the mindset personally. I'm nuts, been shat upon as a kid, who hasn't, but I've never had any desire to shoot up the workplace, elementary or whatever. The worst I've come to is having violent fantasies about doing in the copier/printer at work. When the revolution comes, that thing dies first.
I mean, hell. Every single damned one of us has a sob story of one sort or another, grievances galore and shit we generally could do well without. Most of us, we just shrug our shoulders and deal with whatever crap hand life gives us in a non-violent way.
What makes these evil douche-nozzles snap and do this fuck-shit?
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Post by 3catcircus on May 27, 2022 1:36:35 GMT
18 year old fucking kids should not have access to high powered weaponry. Especially if they're already known to be bug-shit nuts. Fuck all, the morons are already trotting out the tired old excuses, like it's moral decay, video games, anything but the cold hard truth. It's too fucking easy for crazy people of whatever flavor to get their hands on high powered weaponry. I just don't get the mindset personally. I'm nuts, been shat upon as a kid, who hasn't, but I've never had any desire to shoot up the workplace, elementary or whatever. The worst I've come to is having violent fantasies about doing in the copier/printer at work. When the revolution comes, that thing dies first.
I mean, hell. Every single damned one of us has a sob story of one sort or another, grievances galore and shit we generally could do well without. Most of us, we just shrug our shoulders and deal with whatever crap hand life gives us in a non-violent way.
What makes these evil douche-nozzles snap and do this fuck-shit?
This is the rare instance of me trying to logically explain this in the hopes of you not being delusionally wrong. The *single* biggest factor isn't poverty or guns or bullying. The factor - the only factor - that has any appreciable impact on this behavior is whether or not there is a father in the home. Yes, it is compounded by shutting down mental hospitals in the late 1960s. Yes, it is compounded by turning school zones into gun free zones. But it is the lack of a father in the home that is the most significant factor. There is no father in the home to provide a moral compass to boys who are, by their very nature, wilder and harder to control than girls. No father in the home *also* prevents girls from relating to the type of man who has traits they should be seeking out as a husband later in life. And this doesn't just affect whether or not a young man decides to go apeshit. It also affects your ability to be successful in life because good fathers enforce the trinity of success: graduating high school, getting a job with long term prospects, and not having kids until after you are married. But no one wants to admit that the hedonistic amoral lifestyle many Americans live *is* the problem. |
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Post by libtard on May 27, 2022 7:23:30 GMT
18 year old fucking kids should not have access to high powered weaponry. Especially if they're already known to be bug-shit nuts. Fuck all, the morons are already trotting out the tired old excuses, like it's moral decay, video games, anything but the cold hard truth. It's too fucking easy for crazy people of whatever flavor to get their hands on high powered weaponry. I just don't get the mindset personally. I'm nuts, been shat upon as a kid, who hasn't, but I've never had any desire to shoot up the workplace, elementary or whatever. The worst I've come to is having violent fantasies about doing in the copier/printer at work. When the revolution comes, that thing dies first.
I mean, hell. Every single damned one of us has a sob story of one sort or another, grievances galore and shit we generally could do well without. Most of us, we just shrug our shoulders and deal with whatever crap hand life gives us in a non-violent way.
What makes these evil douche-nozzles snap and do this fuck-shit?
This is the rare instance of me trying to logically explain this in the hopes of you not being delusionally wrong. The *single* biggest factor isn't poverty or guns or bullying. The factor - the only factor - that has any appreciable impact on this behavior is whether or not there is a father in the home. Yes, it is compounded by shutting down mental hospitals in the late 1960s. Yes, it is compounded by turning school zones into gun free zones. But it is the lack of a father in the home that is the most significant factor. There is no father in the home to provide a moral compass to boys who are, by their very nature, wilder and harder to control than girls. No father in the home *also* prevents girls from relating to the type of man who has traits they should be seeking out as a husband later in life. And this doesn't just affect whether or not a young man decides to go apeshit. It also affects your ability to be successful in life because good fathers enforce the trinity of success: graduating high school, getting a job with long term prospects, and not having kids until after you are married. But no one wants to admit that the hedonistic amoral lifestyle many Americans live *is* the problem. As usual, you paint a quaint Leave It to Beaver picture of reality. Whereas being raised in a single-parent family may be a significator for shooting sprees, it is far from the only factor and not always easy to disentangle from poverty, insufficient emotional support (regardless of who is providing it) etc. Regardless, you are left with the same problem you have already pointed to: Which is to say, you cannot change society to comport with your moral vision. No, the only factor which matters, which 100% of shooters share, is that they are all in possession of a gun. It is the one thing which could be legislated, to which there is huge resistance, and in the face of which every possible other blame, with no substantive solution, is sought by those invested in a 230-year old document - or, rather, a particular interpretation of the Second Amendment in ye olde Bill of Rights. It is manifested in an enormously powerful lobby group which stymies any real discussion or debate. The failure to act more quickly - which pretty much every other country which experienced mass shootings has done - means that mass shootings are thoroughly normalized in the US, and any form of gun control now seems unlikely. So the only solution is now generational. What might the US do to effect this change? - Incentivize stable households financially
- Require social investment in the form of civic service
- Prioritize reproductive education, and allow easy access to planned parenthood facilities
- Decriminalize drugs and replace a punitive system toward addiction with a therapeutic one
- Massive investment in economically-deprived areas to stimulate growth
- Facilitate easy, affordable access to good childcare, healthcare, and mental healthcare
Seems like a good plan to me.
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Post by evileeyore on May 27, 2022 15:06:11 GMT
It doesn't really matter. By taking away the tool, you prevent the effect. No, you just change the tool. And you're depriving Americans of a tool to resist The State and protect themselves against criminality (and in many areas, wild animals). See, this is that niggling point you don't seem to understand or care about. Or rather, it's okay when it's a part of the Finnish mindset (resist foreign tyranny), but not American. Everything you said about the Fins is Truth, but this is a very, very important part of it. They have a 'civic preparedness mindset' to gun ownership, which has eroded (never existed) in the "urban" ethnicities of the US. There is no father in the home to provide a moral compass to boys who are, by their very nature, wilder and harder to control than girls. That's... that's a wee bit chauvinistic there man. Men and women (boys and girls) aren't "wilder" or "saner" than each other. They act and act out differently... girls are wild in their own way. Boys will get physical, girls get social and mental (and also physical among their own and in packs or alongside males), but that doesn't mean girls aren't "wild". Sneaking off, drinking, smoking, rebelling against 'daddy by sleeping with that boy he hates', etc, they will pull that shit. Boys just spazz out physically due to more testosterone, but they are less likely to deliberately "do that thing they know the parents hate". - Incentivize stable households financially
- Require social investment in the form of civic service
- Prioritize reproductive education, and allow easy access to planned parenthood facilities
Decriminalize drugs and replace a punitive system toward addiction with a therapeutic one- Massive investment in economically-deprived areas to stimulate growth
- Facilitate easy, affordable access to good childcare, healthcare, and mental healthcare
Seems like a good plan to me.
Aside from the part I struck out, I agree. I think if we can clean up the other areas we can drop the gin-and-tonic need for drugs as a classist way to keep the lower class down, don't you agree? (Okay, look, I'm all for "what you do in the privacy of your own home" thing, including drug use. However, no one fucking stays private with that shit. "Oh man, that weed was killer, let's go for a munchy run" is a thing, you know it, I know it. Want to 'decriminalize' drugs, okay, I want harsh sentencing for crimes committed while under the influence, but we can drop "drug use" as a crime. Maybe we can even break the back of Big Pharma while we're at it...) |
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Post by cyphersmith on May 27, 2022 16:04:46 GMT
- Incentivize stable households financially
- Require social investment in the form of civic service
- Prioritize reproductive education, and allow easy access to planned parenthood facilities
Decriminalize drugs and replace a punitive system toward addiction with a therapeutic one- Massive investment in economically-deprived areas to stimulate growth
- Facilitate easy, affordable access to good childcare, healthcare, and mental healthcare
Seems like a good plan to me.
Aside from the part I struck out, I agree. I think if we can clean up the other areas we can drop the gin-and-tonic need for drugs as a classist way to keep the lower class down, don't you agree? (Okay, look, I'm all for "what you do in the privacy of your own home" thing, including drug use. However, no one fucking stays private with that shit. "Oh man, that weed was killer, let's go for a munchy run" is a thing, you know it, I know it. Want to 'decriminalize' drugs, okay, I want harsh sentencing for crimes committed while under the influence, but we can drop "drug use" as a crime. Maybe we can even break the back of Big Pharma while we're at it...) I agree wrt crimes committed under the influence. The problem with drugs is that those charges have lead to the problem that 3cat is complaining about. There's a direct link between the beginning of mass incarceration and drug laws. And because we simply don't forgive people who have been in prison, it becomes hard for people to stay out of jail after one conviction. Because it's hard for them to get a job doing anything but shit work (3cat likely doesn't see a problem with this) that doesn't pay enough. And being a convicted felon makes getting any assistance more difficult (another thing I doubt 3cat minds). Which makes committing crimes much more likely. |
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Post by libtard on May 27, 2022 16:44:19 GMT
My point is in taking measures to prevent the disintegration of families in particular - in which I, perhaps surprisingly - agree with 3catcircus to some degree. And I'm thinking particularly of drugs which are addictive to the point of disrupting lives, not the recreational use of pot; a different set of arguments pertain to mariijuana.
But making felons out of people for possessing piddly quantities of heroin, coke or meth - and permanently disrupting their lives, and those of their families - is much more corrosive to the structure of society. A misdemeanor with mandatory testing, counseling and - if necessary - clinical intervention is more than sufficient.
If you make that shit, however, or supply it, I'm all for throwing the book at you.
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