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Post by 3catcircus on Jul 5, 2020 12:50:42 GMT
Just to clarify....you’re saying that the initial call to remove/ban/change the product is due to stupidity, right? I was more asking about the other side. The resistance to removing it. More along the lines of what Voadam offered. I don’t really see the big deal. I’m all for free speech and I’m not a fan of censorship....but I don’t think that’s the case here. I admit to bot having strong feelings about the book one way or the other. I’m familiar with it from when I was a kid, it’d come into play every now and again, but it was pretty rare. I suppose that’s part of why I don’t fully understand the resistance to the removal from the DMs Guild. I mean, those who are fans of the book likely already have a copy, in one format or another. It’s not like they can erase the book from existence. They simply don’t have to make the PDF available for sale. I suppose many would make the slippery slope argument, and I’m sure that’s at least a little bit valid. I suppose it largely depends on how many people seem to actually want this change? One loud dude on the internet? Who cares? Lots of people calling for change? Probably worth a listen. I personally have no idea the scope of the requested change. I don't care about OA, or if WotC offers it on DMsG or not. My problem is the use of bully tactics to try to force the issue. I think the best course WotC could come up with would be to keep selling 1e OA, but donate the proceeds to a charity (preferably one that actually does stuff). Maybe a cover note. That would make the bullies' attack fail because they'd then be forced to attack a product being used to do good. Whether or not OA is still available doesn't affect me at all, but the bullies be emboldened by another win will. Just to put it out there, I think there's a big difference between the statements of wanting to reduce/eliminate racism and the tactics increasingly used nominally for that end. Here's the problem - by donating to some dubious "charity" or making a cover note, they validate the reactions of people who claim the book is racist when nothing could be further from the truth. Never apologize and never compromise when it will only encourage more bad faith action against you. Nothing is ever good enough for these asshole SJWs since they can't even articulate a valid concern to begin with. They don't want your opinion. They want their opinion coming out of your mouth. |
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Post by Ovinomancer on Jul 5, 2020 15:23:06 GMT
I don't care about OA, or if WotC offers it on DMsG or not. My problem is the use of bully tactics to try to force the issue. I think the best course WotC could come up with would be to keep selling 1e OA, but donate the proceeds to a charity (preferably one that actually does stuff). Maybe a cover note. That would make the bullies' attack fail because they'd then be forced to attack a product being used to do good. Whether or not OA is still available doesn't affect me at all, but the bullies be emboldened by another win will. Just to put it out there, I think there's a big difference between the statements of wanting to reduce/eliminate racism and the tactics increasingly used nominally for that end. Here's the problem - by donating to some dubious "charity" or making a cover note, they validate the reactions of people who claim the book is racist when nothing could be further from the truth. Never apologize and never compromise when it will only encourage more bad faith action against you. Nothing is ever good enough for these asshole SJWs since they can't even articulate a valid concern to begin with. They don't want your opinion. They want their opinion coming out of your mouth. They want to have the book banned. You don't do that, and instead turn the book into a source of support for their movement. This is NOT what they want -- they do NOT want approaches that assist. You have to grasp that a lot of this stuff is performative bullying, and bullies are not please by counters that slip out of the behavior they want. Putting the meager proceeds of this book out for charities doesn't empower the bullies because they don't get to metaphorically burn the book. This is how you akido their attacks. Because, let's be honest, here, going after a nearly 30 year old book that's a minor offer on a niche website isn't about combating racism in gaming. It's about trying to force a company to capitulate to demands using the new meta, all so the person making the demands feels powerful within their social group. If you deny that by not letting them remove the product AND actually doing something positive for the goal they're claiming to champion, your removing the reward the person hoped to receive. If you remove the book, they feel powerful. If you do not remove the book, and do nothing, they get to claim victimhood and slander you, thereby making them powerful. If you usurp their demands and actually aid the claimed goal, they're left with nothing and you look good. |
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Post by 3catcircus on Jul 5, 2020 16:25:34 GMT
Here's the problem - by donating to some dubious "charity" or making a cover note, they validate the reactions of people who claim the book is racist when nothing could be further from the truth. Never apologize and never compromise when it will only encourage more bad faith action against you. Nothing is ever good enough for these asshole SJWs since they can't even articulate a valid concern to begin with. They don't want your opinion. They want their opinion coming out of your mouth. They want to have the book banned. You don't do that, and instead turn the book into a source of support for their movement. This is NOT what they want -- they do NOT want approaches that assist. You have to grasp that a lot of this stuff is performative bullying, and bullies are not please by counters that slip out of the behavior they want. Putting the meager proceeds of this book out for charities doesn't empower the bullies because they don't get to metaphorically burn the book. This is how you akido their attacks. Because, let's be honest, here, going after a nearly 30 year old book that's a minor offer on a niche website isn't about combating racism in gaming. It's about trying to force a company to capitulate to demands using the new meta, all so the person making the demands feels powerful within their social group. If you deny that by not letting them remove the product AND actually doing something positive for the goal they're claiming to champion, your removing the reward the person hoped to receive. If you remove the book, they feel powerful. If you do not remove the book, and do nothing, they get to claim victimhood and slander you, thereby making them powerful. If you usurp their demands and actually aid the claimed goal, they're left with nothing and you look good. I get this, but don't particularly agree with it being effective because they *won't* be doing what you claim they would. These bullies/leftists/SJWs will actually claim that they forced capitulation by their protest resulting in concessions by forcing the publisher to change their attitudes by putting a trigger warning on the product or donating to their cause du jour. They always take take take like locusts because they are never actively, loudly, and violently opposed. Doing anything other than outright rejection of their fucked-up world view only emboldens them. The only way to "win" is to loudly and publicly reject their ideas in the full view of sunlight. That unwillingness to do so is part of the problem in current society is that leftists continue to set the table for the debate and everyone else reacts instead of forcing the table to be set differently. Not one single moderate or conservative, with few exceptions, ever gives them the equivalent of a smack across the mouth in the public square. If more non-leftists were as loud and as public in telling them to fuck off as leftists are in declaring everyone they don't agree with to be a racist, this shit would cease to continue. Moderates and conservatives need to stop with the romantic notion of being the ethical warrior - this is guerrilla warfare and we need to fight more effectively than the left. |
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Post by Sadras on Jul 5, 2020 21:17:58 GMT
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Post by Sadras on Jul 5, 2020 21:49:14 GMT
So I only just saw all the recent threads posted about the old Oriental Adventures book, and only because they were linked here. I don’t have the endurance to read through the entire thread for the handful of posts that might actually be thoughtful. Does anyone here have any kind of summary of why folks are resisting removal of the old book? I mean, it seems this is only really an issue due to the advent of digital books. Before that, something like this that didn’t age well would simply fade away once they stopped printing new copies. Should a company be obliged to sell old and potentially outdated material indefinitely? Yeah, pretty much because the justifications provided within the youtube series diatribe amount to nothing. Pemerton makes a great case for the book towards the end of the thread. And this is not a question about a company obliging anyone. |
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Post by voadam on Jul 6, 2020 16:02:09 GMT
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Post by 3catcircus on Jul 6, 2020 19:02:59 GMT
He really has emerged as one of the prime shitheads of the latest graduating class of ENW participants. |
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Post by hawkeyefan on Jul 6, 2020 19:27:05 GMT
So I only just saw all the recent threads posted about the old Oriental Adventures book, and only because they were linked here. I don’t have the endurance to read through the entire thread for the handful of posts that might actually be thoughtful. Does anyone here have any kind of summary of why folks are resisting removal of the old book? I mean, it seems this is only really an issue due to the advent of digital books. Before that, something like this that didn’t age well would simply fade away once they stopped printing new copies. Should a company be obliged to sell old and potentially outdated material indefinitely? Yeah, pretty much because the justifications provided within the youtube series diatribe amount to nothing. Pemerton makes a great case for the book towards the end of the thread. And this is not a question about a company obliging anyone. Thanks for pointing to pemerton’s post. That was the kind of reasoned argument I was looking for. My point about obligation is relevant, I think. Is WOTC obligated to continue to make all TSR material available? I don’t think they’ve always done so, and I think they’ve had a variety of reasons for that. In this case, is it worth it for them to remove OA based on this outcry. I get that you don’t feel it’s justified, and I’d largely agree....but that doesn’t mean that it’s not a question of obligation. |
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Post by voadam on Jul 6, 2020 20:34:54 GMT
Yeah, pretty much because the justifications provided within the youtube series diatribe amount to nothing. Pemerton makes a great case for the book towards the end of the thread. And this is not a question about a company obliging anyone. Thanks for pointing to pemerton’s post. That was the kind of reasoned argument I was looking for. My point about obligation is relevant, I think. Is WOTC obligated to continue to make all TSR material available? I don’t think they’ve always done so, and I think they’ve had a variety of reasons for that. In this case, is it worth it for them to remove OA based on this outcry. I get that you don’t feel it’s justified, and I’d largely agree....but that doesn’t mean that it’s not a question of obligation. They pulled all their PDFs for sale before as a business decision about electronic stuff and access to old editions and I felt it was a jerk move on their part that I did not like and said so at the time.
I feel it would be more of a jerk move to pull stuff specifically about its contents.
They are under no legal obligation to sell anything. As the copyright holder and exclusive legal provider of the content it is a jerk move to remove legal access to the back catalog, more so with that as the intent.
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Post by voadam on Jul 7, 2020 19:08:48 GMT
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Post by Ovinomancer on Jul 7, 2020 23:39:51 GMT
Xenonnonex has deleted their account without flameout after being moderated out of a 2nd thread for wholesale porting the argument from the 1st. Not really that interesting of an argument, either, but they apparently felt strongly enough about the 2nd moderation to delete their account. And just as I realized how awesome he is to read -- if you read it in the style of Chris Walken.
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Post by Lanefan on Jul 8, 2020 3:52:51 GMT
Xenonnonex has deleted their account without flameout after being moderated out of a 2nd thread for wholesale porting the argument from the 1st. Not really that interesting of an argument, either, but they apparently felt strongly enough about the 2nd moderation to delete their account. And just as I realized how awesome he is to read -- if you read it in the style of Chris Walken. I just imagined hearing X's posts in Yoda's voice - made them much easier to parse.
Come to think of it, though, did that person ever post in an actual gaming-related thread, or just in the social-issues ones?
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Post by Ovinomancer on Jul 23, 2020 1:35:05 GMT
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Post by Maxperson on Jul 23, 2020 3:35:38 GMT
Xenonnonex has deleted their account without flameout after being moderated out of a 2nd thread for wholesale porting the argument from the 1st. Not really that interesting of an argument, either, but they apparently felt strongly enough about the 2nd moderation to delete their account. And just as I realized how awesome he is to read -- if you read it in the style of Chris Walken. Heh. I was reading him in Mojo Jojo voice. |
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Post by flexor on Aug 19, 2020 17:20:30 GMT
Orcslayer78 just melted down. Morrus does seem almost so woke I think he's taking the piss at times I must admit. Necromancer games = bad? |
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