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Post by evileeyore on Jun 20, 2020 12:59:47 GMT
Overall, Obama was a much better president than Trump could ever hope to be. They'll go down in history as being remarkably the same, just different methods to achieve the same madness. And still, you know Obama separated more children from families at the border, killed more foreign brown people, and sold more of our country to foreign powers than any other president and the entire time he did this you were all "rah-rah Obama". But now you're on fire with hatred for the Trump... Is it because it makes you uncomfortable to contemplate the implications concerning your thought leaders (the leftist news media), or does it make you uncomfortable to realize you rah-rahed for someone who was evil? |
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Post by Maxperson on Jun 21, 2020 1:30:35 GMT
Overall, Obama was a much better president than Trump could ever hope to be. They'll go down in history as being remarkably the same, just different methods to achieve the same madness. And still, you know Obama separated more children from families at the border, killed more foreign brown people, and sold more of our country to foreign powers than any other president and the entire time he did this you were all "rah-rah Obama". But now you're on fire with hatred for the Trump... Is it because it makes you uncomfortable to contemplate the implications concerning your thought leaders (the leftist news media), or does it make you uncomfortable to realize you rah-rahed for someone who was evil? Obama also stoked racial tensions to incredibly high levels, murdered an American without due process, gave Congress the ability to force us to buy anything they say or be taxed as a penalty, had some of the worse transparency in modern times, deported massive numbers of illegals, and more. Even with all of that, though, he's still better than Trump. I put Obama on par with Bush Jr., though. |
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Post by mustrumridcully on Jun 21, 2020 21:43:15 GMT
Overall, Obama was a much better president than Trump could ever hope to be. They'll go down in history as being remarkably the same, just different methods to achieve the same madness. And still, you know Obama separated more children from families at the border, killed more foreign brown people, and sold more of our country to foreign powers than any other president and the entire time he did this you were all "rah-rah Obama". But now you're on fire with hatred for the Trump... Is it because it makes you uncomfortable to contemplate the implications concerning your thought leaders (the leftist news media), or does it make you uncomfortable to realize you rah-rahed for someone who was evil? I would say stuff like selling more of the country to foreign powers is high-grade bullshit and the rest is questionable, and Trump will definitely be remembered as one of the worst presidents the US ever had.
An ignorant narcissist that destroyed a lot of good will people had towards the US, damaging international relations to the benefit of US and Western rivals. His utter failure to respond to the Corona Crisis will be a particularly bad mark for him - we have no idea how Obama (or any Bush, or any CLinton) would have done, but we know Trump looked bad. People won't be able to ignore that, particularly since many other countries with different leaders did handle it better, and there is just no excuse.
He'll also be remembered as the president that hired highly-competent and respectable people which he fires quickly and later denounces as incompetent, lazy or liars, or a combination of it.
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Post by Ovinomancer on Jun 22, 2020 0:11:53 GMT
They'll go down in history as being remarkably the same, just different methods to achieve the same madness. And still, you know Obama separated more children from families at the border, killed more foreign brown people, and sold more of our country to foreign powers than any other president and the entire time he did this you were all "rah-rah Obama". But now you're on fire with hatred for the Trump... Is it because it makes you uncomfortable to contemplate the implications concerning your thought leaders (the leftist news media), or does it make you uncomfortable to realize you rah-rahed for someone who was evil? I would say stuff like selling more of the country to foreign powers is high-grade bullshit and the rest is questionable, and Trump will definitely be remembered as one of the worst presidents the US ever had.
An ignorant narcissist that destroyed a lot of good will people had towards the US, damaging international relations to the benefit of US and Western rivals. His utter failure to respond to the Corona Crisis will be a particularly bad mark for him - we have no idea how Obama (or any Bush, or any CLinton) would have done, but we know Trump looked bad. People won't be able to ignore that, particularly since many other countries with different leaders did handle it better, and there is just no excuse. He'll also be remembered as the president that hired highly-competent and respectable people which he fires quickly and later denounces as incompetent, lazy or liars, or a combination of it. Utter failure to respond to the Corona crisis? Weird, I didn't peg you for a kirinke follower. Trump did about as good a job as you could expect given the lack of good information, and his administration managed to flatten the curve and provide massive amounts of material and assistance across the country. NYC dominated the news cycle, but that was all DeBlasio and Cuomo, not Trump -- he sent a hospital ship, built field hospitals, and provided respirators that Cuomo had just sold off NY's reserves and declined to buy new ones. Saying Trump didn't respond to the Corona crisis asks some pretty harsh questions about European leadership. |
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Post by Kzach on Jun 22, 2020 2:41:45 GMT
I would say stuff like selling more of the country to foreign powers is high-grade bullshit and the rest is questionable, and Trump will definitely be remembered as one of the worst presidents the US ever had.
An ignorant narcissist that destroyed a lot of good will people had towards the US, damaging international relations to the benefit of US and Western rivals. His utter failure to respond to the Corona Crisis will be a particularly bad mark for him - we have no idea how Obama (or any Bush, or any CLinton) would have done, but we know Trump looked bad. People won't be able to ignore that, particularly since many other countries with different leaders did handle it better, and there is just no excuse. He'll also be remembered as the president that hired highly-competent and respectable people which he fires quickly and later denounces as incompetent, lazy or liars, or a combination of it. Utter failure to respond to the Corona crisis? Weird, I didn't peg you for a kirinke follower. Trump did about as good a job as you could expect given the lack of good information, and his administration managed to flatten the curve and provide massive amounts of material and assistance across the country. NYC dominated the news cycle, but that was all DeBlasio and Cuomo, not Trump -- he sent a hospital ship, built field hospitals, and provided respirators that Cuomo had just sold off NY's reserves and declined to buy new ones. Saying Trump didn't respond to the Corona crisis asks some pretty harsh questions about European leadership. What flavor is the kool-aid anyway? |
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Post by mustrumridcully on Jun 22, 2020 12:25:37 GMT
Utter failure to respond to the Corona crisis? Weird, I didn't peg you for a kirinke follower. Trump did about as good a job as you could expect given the lack of good information, and his administration managed to flatten the curve and provide massive amounts of material and assistance across the country. NYC dominated the news cycle, but that was all DeBlasio and Cuomo, not Trump -- he sent a hospital ship, built field hospitals, and provided respirators that Cuomo had just sold off NY's reserves and declined to buy new ones. Saying Trump didn't respond to the Corona crisis asks some pretty harsh questions about European leadership. What flavor is the kool-aid anyway? A flavor that trumps everything. |
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Post by Sadras on Jun 22, 2020 12:57:54 GMT
It looks like the leftist propaganda machine is doing well in Europe.
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Post by Kzach on Jun 22, 2020 14:55:04 GMT
What flavor is the kool-aid anyway? A flavor that trumps everything. Orange it is. |
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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 22, 2020 16:20:57 GMT
I would say stuff like selling more of the country to foreign powers is high-grade bullshit and the rest is questionable, and Trump will definitely be remembered as one of the worst presidents the US ever had.
An ignorant narcissist that destroyed a lot of good will people had towards the US, damaging international relations to the benefit of US and Western rivals. His utter failure to respond to the Corona Crisis will be a particularly bad mark for him - we have no idea how Obama (or any Bush, or any CLinton) would have done, but we know Trump looked bad. People won't be able to ignore that, particularly since many other countries with different leaders did handle it better, and there is just no excuse. He'll also be remembered as the president that hired highly-competent and respectable people which he fires quickly and later denounces as incompetent, lazy or liars, or a combination of it. Utter failure to respond to the Corona crisis? Weird, I didn't peg you for a kirinke follower. Trump did about as good a job as you could expect given the lack of good information, and his administration managed to flatten the curve and provide massive amounts of material and assistance across the country. NYC dominated the news cycle, but that was all DeBlasio and Cuomo, not Trump -- he sent a hospital ship, built field hospitals, and provided respirators that Cuomo had just sold off NY's reserves and declined to buy new ones. Saying Trump didn't respond to the Corona crisis asks some pretty harsh questions about European leadership. Give credit where it belongs. NY built the field hospitals in NY. His administration had jack shit to do with flattening the curve. That was on the states. And the Feds may have coordinated getting ventilators to where they were needed, but they DIDN'T coordinate anything else that should have been coordinated by the Feds, such as PPE. And they made the attempts to get PPE by the states worse by also buying PPE out from under the states. And not sending it to the states, but building up their stockpile. They should have been buying ALL of the PPE and sending it to the states. The PPE would have cost less had they done that. Further, the CDC fucked up the manufacture of the initial set of tests. They were contaminated in their manufacture such that they gave positive results from pure water, rendering them useless. And, while the Federal government may not have the authority to order the closure of states (though I'm not entirely sure about that, the Federal government should have that kind of authority in an emergency that hits the entire country), there should have been clear guidelines put out in a reasonable amount of time with input mostly from doctors and scientists. Those guidelines didn't start showing up until AFTER the shutdowns had started. |
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Post by Ovinomancer on Jun 22, 2020 16:38:57 GMT
Utter failure to respond to the Corona crisis? Weird, I didn't peg you for a kirinke follower. Trump did about as good a job as you could expect given the lack of good information, and his administration managed to flatten the curve and provide massive amounts of material and assistance across the country. NYC dominated the news cycle, but that was all DeBlasio and Cuomo, not Trump -- he sent a hospital ship, built field hospitals, and provided respirators that Cuomo had just sold off NY's reserves and declined to buy new ones. Saying Trump didn't respond to the Corona crisis asks some pretty harsh questions about European leadership. Give credit where it belongs. NY built the field hospitals in NY. His administration had jack shit to do with flattening the curve. That was on the states. And the Feds may have coordinated getting ventilators to where they were needed, but they DIDN'T coordinate anything else that should have been coordinated by the Feds, such as PPE. And they made the attempts to get PPE by the states worse by also buying PPE out from under the states. And not sending it to the states, but building up their stockpile. They should have been buying ALL of the PPE and sending it to the states. The PPE would have cost less had they done that. Further, the CDC fucked up the manufacture of the initial set of tests. They were contaminated in their manufacture such that they gave positive results from pure water, rendering them useless. And, while the Federal government may not have the authority to order the closure of states (though I'm not entirely sure about that, the Federal government should have that kind of authority in an emergency that hits the entire country), there should have been clear guidelines put out in a reasonable amount of time with input mostly from doctors and scientists. Those guidelines didn't start showing up until AFTER the shutdowns had started. This is rather confused. The Army Corp of Engineers built the field hospitals in NY. That's not NY, that's Federal. Trump led a huge amount of cheerleading and put Faucci and Birx center stage to give out information, which led the national effort to flatten the curve. Without any information from the Feds, the response would have been far more chaotic and ineffective -- see the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic. This talking point is bunk. The did coordinate PPE. The Federal stockpile of PPE had been gutted by Obama. There essentially wasn't one. As the States would have loved to buy all the PPE they could in an open market, the Federal effort was to make sure that there was a strategic stockpile to apply to fast outbreaks. If they had done what you suggest and there had been a major outbreak in a state that hadn't been able to procure PPE (or did not), you'd be here accusing Trump of incompetence because he didn't stockpile PPE. This is a no win argument because and is bunk. Yes, this effort inhibited States because there wasn't a national stockpile anymore (Thanks, Obama!) and PPE was in globally short supply (Thanks, China!). Having to balance two competing interests for the safety of the population is the very definition of leadership. The CDC issue has been discussed -- the CDC was following old plans and efforts, including the updates from the Swine Flu under Obama. When this became apparent, Trump changed things, allowed for rapid industry development of testing kits, and removed the CDC regulations on who could process tests. This massively increased the testing available, but, being behind the curve due to inherited plans and CDC calcification, that meant we were still behind the curve. This, again, is leadership in difficult conditions. Trump made a call and changed things. Had we continued to follow CDC plans, we'd have almost nothing. Come on. Trump does enough things wrong that you really shouldn't have to make shit up like this. |
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Post by Ovinomancer on Jun 22, 2020 16:43:05 GMT
What flavor is the kool-aid anyway? A flavor that trumps everything. Nothing on how EU response to COVID-19 was pretty much non-existent, or how the member states of the EU refused to assist other members, or how the situations in Europe isn't any better (worse, if you discount NYC) than the US? If Trump was an example of terrible leadership, what does that say about European leaders? See how easy it is to cherrypick? |
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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 22, 2020 19:21:07 GMT
Give credit where it belongs. NY built the field hospitals in NY. His administration had jack shit to do with flattening the curve. That was on the states. And the Feds may have coordinated getting ventilators to where they were needed, but they DIDN'T coordinate anything else that should have been coordinated by the Feds, such as PPE. And they made the attempts to get PPE by the states worse by also buying PPE out from under the states. And not sending it to the states, but building up their stockpile. They should have been buying ALL of the PPE and sending it to the states. The PPE would have cost less had they done that. Further, the CDC fucked up the manufacture of the initial set of tests. They were contaminated in their manufacture such that they gave positive results from pure water, rendering them useless. And, while the Federal government may not have the authority to order the closure of states (though I'm not entirely sure about that, the Federal government should have that kind of authority in an emergency that hits the entire country), there should have been clear guidelines put out in a reasonable amount of time with input mostly from doctors and scientists. Those guidelines didn't start showing up until AFTER the shutdowns had started. This is rather confused. The Army Corp of Engineers built the field hospitals in NY. That's not NY, that's Federal. Trump led a huge amount of cheerleading and put Faucci and Birx center stage to give out information, which led the national effort to flatten the curve. Without any information from the Feds, the response would have been far more chaotic and ineffective -- see the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic. This talking point is bunk. The did coordinate PPE. The Federal stockpile of PPE had been gutted by Obama. There essentially wasn't one. As the States would have loved to buy all the PPE they could in an open market, the Federal effort was to make sure that there was a strategic stockpile to apply to fast outbreaks. If they had done what you suggest and there had been a major outbreak in a state that hadn't been able to procure PPE (or did not), you'd be here accusing Trump of incompetence because he didn't stockpile PPE. This is a no win argument because and is bunk. Yes, this effort inhibited States because there wasn't a national stockpile anymore (Thanks, Obama!) and PPE was in globally short supply (Thanks, China!). Having to balance two competing interests for the safety of the population is the very definition of leadership. The CDC issue has been discussed -- the CDC was following old plans and efforts, including the updates from the Swine Flu under Obama. When this became apparent, Trump changed things, allowed for rapid industry development of testing kits, and removed the CDC regulations on who could process tests. This massively increased the testing available, but, being behind the curve due to inherited plans and CDC calcification, that meant we were still behind the curve. This, again, is leadership in difficult conditions. Trump made a call and changed things. Had we continued to follow CDC plans, we'd have almost nothing. Come on. Trump does enough things wrong that you really shouldn't have to make shit up like this. Except Obama tried, several times, to buy more things for the stockpile and was stopped by Congress. And it still shouldn't have been an uncoordinated mess like it was. Had the Federal government bought the supplies and sent them to states when the states requested them, as should have been happening, there would have been less confusion, and there still would have been a response to any unexpected outbreak within hours. An outbreak like that wouldn't show up in just a few hours, and it would be obvious where it was happening. You're making excuses for things that aren't real. Further, the Federal government could have started buying that PPE in the beginning of February, when they knew it was a problem, but someone didn't believe what he was being told. You're misreading what I said about the CDC. They failed to follow their own rules AT THE TIME, and as a result the tests they did have became contaminated. Here is an article about that. |
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Post by Ovinomancer on Jun 22, 2020 20:35:20 GMT
This is rather confused. The Army Corp of Engineers built the field hospitals in NY. That's not NY, that's Federal. Trump led a huge amount of cheerleading and put Faucci and Birx center stage to give out information, which led the national effort to flatten the curve. Without any information from the Feds, the response would have been far more chaotic and ineffective -- see the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic. This talking point is bunk. The did coordinate PPE. The Federal stockpile of PPE had been gutted by Obama. There essentially wasn't one. As the States would have loved to buy all the PPE they could in an open market, the Federal effort was to make sure that there was a strategic stockpile to apply to fast outbreaks. If they had done what you suggest and there had been a major outbreak in a state that hadn't been able to procure PPE (or did not), you'd be here accusing Trump of incompetence because he didn't stockpile PPE. This is a no win argument because and is bunk. Yes, this effort inhibited States because there wasn't a national stockpile anymore (Thanks, Obama!) and PPE was in globally short supply (Thanks, China!). Having to balance two competing interests for the safety of the population is the very definition of leadership. The CDC issue has been discussed -- the CDC was following old plans and efforts, including the updates from the Swine Flu under Obama. When this became apparent, Trump changed things, allowed for rapid industry development of testing kits, and removed the CDC regulations on who could process tests. This massively increased the testing available, but, being behind the curve due to inherited plans and CDC calcification, that meant we were still behind the curve. This, again, is leadership in difficult conditions. Trump made a call and changed things. Had we continued to follow CDC plans, we'd have almost nothing. Come on. Trump does enough things wrong that you really shouldn't have to make shit up like this. Except Obama tried, several times, to buy more things for the stockpile and was stopped by Congress. And it still shouldn't have been an uncoordinated mess like it was. Had the Federal government bought the supplies and sent them to states when the states requested them, as should have been happening, there would have been less confusion, and there still would have been a response to any unexpected outbreak within hours. An outbreak like that wouldn't show up in just a few hours, and it would be obvious where it was happening. You're making excuses for things that aren't real. Further, the Federal government could have started buying that PPE in the beginning of February, when they knew it was a problem, but someone didn't believe what he was being told. You're misreading what I said about the CDC. They failed to follow their own rules AT THE TIME, and as a result the tests they did have became contaminated. Here is an article about that. It wasn't uncoordinated, it had a different goal than what you want. It did what it was meant to do pretty well. That is disordered the States is unavoidable -- you cannot have both a system where they states buy everything they want and the Feds also get to buy enough to support what the states don't. That's a basic misunderstanding of supply and demand where you've assumed the problem was one of policy rather than a badly disordered market to begin with. There was never a stable outcome that could have happened. As such, the Feds took the view that having a stockpile available was the right call. You disagree, but that's a policy disagreement, not a failure of leadership or directions. And, yes, the CDC also messed up it's bad plans, making it worse. That problem was what revealed that they couldn't even manufacture or test the corrupted test at anything like the scale needed. Both problems were addressed by Trump opening testing to industry and relaxing restrictions both on test sourcing and actual testing facilities. I was waiting on a COVID test as this was happening, so I had a very keen observational point as to what was going on. I was initially told I'd have to wait 5 days to be tested, which turned into 1 day as a batch of tests showed up from an industry vendor, then that I would have to wait 1-2 weeks for results, which I actually got in 3 days. This was just after Trump ditched the CDC plans and opening things up to industry. So, yeah, I'll take my in the moment experience and keen awareness of the issue for your rehashed and rebuilt story about how Trump just sucked. I also love how Trump should have known and fixed the CDC prior to this so everything was perfect while Obama gets the "but Congress!" defense. Congress didn't make Obama not buy masks. Also, in case it matters, here's that bastion of the far-right, USAToday, fact checking the statement that Obama used most of the respirators and masks in the stockpile but didn't replace them. Verdict: True. |
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Post by cyphersmith on Jun 23, 2020 15:23:24 GMT
Except Obama tried, several times, to buy more things for the stockpile and was stopped by Congress. And it still shouldn't have been an uncoordinated mess like it was. Had the Federal government bought the supplies and sent them to states when the states requested them, as should have been happening, there would have been less confusion, and there still would have been a response to any unexpected outbreak within hours. An outbreak like that wouldn't show up in just a few hours, and it would be obvious where it was happening. You're making excuses for things that aren't real. Further, the Federal government could have started buying that PPE in the beginning of February, when they knew it was a problem, but someone didn't believe what he was being told. You're misreading what I said about the CDC. They failed to follow their own rules AT THE TIME, and as a result the tests they did have became contaminated. Here is an article about that. It wasn't uncoordinated, it had a different goal than what you want. It did what it was meant to do pretty well. That is disordered the States is unavoidable -- you cannot have both a system where they states buy everything they want and the Feds also get to buy enough to support what the states don't. That's a basic misunderstanding of supply and demand where you've assumed the problem was one of policy rather than a badly disordered market to begin with. There was never a stable outcome that could have happened. As such, the Feds took the view that having a stockpile available was the right call. You disagree, but that's a policy disagreement, not a failure of leadership or directions. And, yes, the CDC also messed up it's bad plans, making it worse. That problem was what revealed that they couldn't even manufacture or test the corrupted test at anything like the scale needed. Both problems were addressed by Trump opening testing to industry and relaxing restrictions both on test sourcing and actual testing facilities. I was waiting on a COVID test as this was happening, so I had a very keen observational point as to what was going on. I was initially told I'd have to wait 5 days to be tested, which turned into 1 day as a batch of tests showed up from an industry vendor, then that I would have to wait 1-2 weeks for results, which I actually got in 3 days. This was just after Trump ditched the CDC plans and opening things up to industry. So, yeah, I'll take my in the moment experience and keen awareness of the issue for your rehashed and rebuilt story about how Trump just sucked. I also love how Trump should have known and fixed the CDC prior to this so everything was perfect while Obama gets the "but Congress!" defense. Congress didn't make Obama not buy masks. Also, in case it matters, here's that bastion of the far-right, USAToday, fact checking the statement that Obama used most of the respirators and masks in the stockpile but didn't replace them. Verdict: True. They should have done both. That is their job. Also, the regulation that you're talking about, I think, was the FDA regulation that didn't allow a test to be deployed by independent labs. That's a Bush era regulation. And the Trump administration had three years to replace them as well, and didn't. |
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Post by Ovinomancer on Jun 23, 2020 22:23:11 GMT
It wasn't uncoordinated, it had a different goal than what you want. It did what it was meant to do pretty well. That is disordered the States is unavoidable -- you cannot have both a system where they states buy everything they want and the Feds also get to buy enough to support what the states don't. That's a basic misunderstanding of supply and demand where you've assumed the problem was one of policy rather than a badly disordered market to begin with. There was never a stable outcome that could have happened. As such, the Feds took the view that having a stockpile available was the right call. You disagree, but that's a policy disagreement, not a failure of leadership or directions. And, yes, the CDC also messed up it's bad plans, making it worse. That problem was what revealed that they couldn't even manufacture or test the corrupted test at anything like the scale needed. Both problems were addressed by Trump opening testing to industry and relaxing restrictions both on test sourcing and actual testing facilities. I was waiting on a COVID test as this was happening, so I had a very keen observational point as to what was going on. I was initially told I'd have to wait 5 days to be tested, which turned into 1 day as a batch of tests showed up from an industry vendor, then that I would have to wait 1-2 weeks for results, which I actually got in 3 days. This was just after Trump ditched the CDC plans and opening things up to industry. So, yeah, I'll take my in the moment experience and keen awareness of the issue for your rehashed and rebuilt story about how Trump just sucked. I also love how Trump should have known and fixed the CDC prior to this so everything was perfect while Obama gets the "but Congress!" defense. Congress didn't make Obama not buy masks. Also, in case it matters, here's that bastion of the far-right, USAToday, fact checking the statement that Obama used most of the respirators and masks in the stockpile but didn't replace them. Verdict: True. They should have done both. That is their job. Your demand the world work how you imagine it doesn't mean it actually will. Okay, point? Obama had 8 and didn't. Point? Let me guess, Trump should have known better but sinister forces worked to stop Obama? |
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