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Post by Eldorian on Mar 27, 2020 2:14:37 GMT
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Post by evileeyore on Mar 27, 2020 4:39:45 GMT
So, when you say "genetic evidence" what you mean is "no genetic evidence"*. Granted, all of that does paint a strong coincidental case for the Spanish Flu having been lurking around getting picked up and spread about by various armies. And I'd like to point to: "Returning to the 1917 paper by Hammond, Rolland and Shore [5]: by describing a ‘symptom complex so distinctive as to constitute a definite clinical entity’ they provided what may be the first clear account of the pandemic disease that peaked in 1918 and became known as ‘Spanish flu’." 5 Hammond JAB, Rolland W, Shore THG. Purulent bronchitis: a study of cases occurring amongst the British troops at a base in France. Lancet 1917;2:41–5. And then I'll point to: "At any given time, two million men and women from the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, China, India, the West Indies, South Africa, Fiji, Portugal and elsewhere were serving with the British army in the north of France." You know what I don't see in that quote? The USA. You know what I do see in that quote? (side note I've always blamed the French for the Spanish Flu personally, but that's probably due to the "british army stationed in France" bit of medical journals coming out when I was in HS) * And no, "these people have markers of having a an H1 flu strain when they were children" is not genetic evidence of the origin of the Spanish Flu. At best it points to where outbreaks of flu from that family occurred when they were children, nothing more. |
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Post by evileeyore on Mar 27, 2020 5:19:17 GMT
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Post by Eldorian on Mar 27, 2020 6:03:52 GMT
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Post by Eldorian on Mar 27, 2020 6:25:19 GMT
Just as Ovi is not a lawyer, you are not a virologist. The origin is still cloudy, but
is the argument for a US origin.
The Spanish flu became widespread via the demobilization of WW1. The reason no Americans were mentioned in that sentence you quoted is because it was a list of British Empire troops that spread the disease to their homelands following demobilization, which explained why an outbreak in northern France became a worldwide pandemic.
And this is pointless. I think everyone, including China's government, agrees that their shitty "traditional Chinese medicine" that involves eating rare wild animals is a timebomb for disease. But most of these big pandemics have jumped from domesticated animals, not wild animals, and I see no reason to blame China for that. Basically every society that isn't vegan is to blame. You've been reading authright memes again.
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Post by Maxperson on Mar 27, 2020 12:13:39 GMT
Was this report from a Chinese medical journal, or something credible? Your mom. Yes. His mom is more credible than the Chinese. |
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Post by kirinke on Mar 27, 2020 12:15:59 GMT
Every country eats game meat. I think the real problem is the wet markets. No refrigeration, no standards of cleanliness and alot of people crowded around. Basically a petri dish waiting for any viral outbreak to happen. |
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Post by Maxperson on Mar 27, 2020 12:19:50 GMT
Just as Ovi is not a lawyer, you are not a virologist. The origin is still cloudy, but is the argument for a US origin. The Spanish flu became widespread via the demobilization of WW1. The reason no Americans were mentioned in that sentence you quoted is because it was a list of British Empire troops that spread the disease to their homelands following demobilization, which explained why an outbreak in northern France became a worldwide pandemic. And this is pointless. I think everyone, including China's government, agrees that their shitty "traditional Chinese medicine" that involves eating rare wild animals is a timebomb for disease. But most of these big pandemics have jumped from domesticated animals, not wild animals, and I see no reason to blame China for that. Basically every society that isn't vegan is to blame. You've been reading authright memes again. If that's the argument, it's REALLY shitty. "...related to those circulating..." means that the Spanish Flu was not those illnesses. Full stop. If there is a not Spanish Flu that was in the U.S. and it mutated, becoming the Spanish Flu in Spain, France or China, then wherever the mutation happened is the origin of the Spanish Flu. |
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Post by Ovinomancer on Mar 27, 2020 12:31:06 GMT
Just as Ovi is not a lawyer, you are not a virologist. The origin is still cloudy, but What an idiotic thing to say, as neither are you. Man, that's super flimsy, moreso than the circumstantial argument for a Chinese origin. The Spanish flu most likely originated in the stew of WWI France from multiple sources, combining in the dense mass of humanity ftom all over the globe packed together with lots of wild and domesticated animals. Toss in mutengenic chemical weapons and lousy hygeine and you have the recipe for a zoonotic virus bonanza. Given how viruses mutate, it probably "cane" from more than one place and mixed on site. |
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Post by kirinke on Mar 27, 2020 15:11:00 GMT
So basically, the 1918 epidemic was because of one humongously big 'wet market' so to speak.
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Post by Eldorian on Mar 27, 2020 18:00:27 GMT
I am also not a virologist, but at least I know it, and I can quote the relevant section of the paper.
And you're also not a virologist, so I'd thank you not to judge the strength of the actual virologist's argument using your flimsy sense of what passes for a strong argument in virology. Especially considering that what you think passes for a strong argument in general is pretty wack.
But of course, not knowing wtf you're talking about has never stopped you from having a strong opinion on the matter, Dunning-Kruger.
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Post by kirinke on Mar 27, 2020 19:49:46 GMT
The reports I've read, admittedly with no expertise, all point out that they don't really know for sure what the country of origin was though.
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Post by Eldorian on Mar 27, 2020 20:22:44 GMT
All I ever wrote was that genetic evidence points to a North American origin. I made no strong claims. Nailbunny said it was china along with every other pandemic ever, which is shit he picked up from authright resources that want to blame all problems on "the other".
And Ovi, of course, claims to be an expert in constitutional law as well as every other aspect of knowledge at the same time (despite ample evidence to the contrary, including electrical engineering in which he claims to have an actual degree in), so he just had to chime in.
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Post by Ovinomancer on Mar 27, 2020 21:05:42 GMT
I am also not a virologist, but at least I know it, and I can quote the relevant section of the paper. And you're also not a virologist, so I'd thank you not to judge the strength of the actual virologist's argument using your flimsy sense of what passes for a strong argument in virology. Especially considering that what you think passes for a strong argument in general is pretty wack. But of course, not knowing wtf you're talking about has never stopped you from having a strong opinion on the matter, Dunning-Kruger. I didn't, I read other virologists about the origin of the Spanish Flu. A US origin is very, very shaky. A China origin is shaky. A France origin looks very strong. I mean, if you really want to make an argument from authority based on a conjecture in a single paper despite the wealth of other information, I suppose you can, but you should really not try to improperly leverage Dunner-Kruger while you do so -- it's a bit on the nose. |
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Post by kirinke on Mar 27, 2020 22:00:11 GMT
It could have multiple points of origin. I mean, it originated in birds. Birds migrate. I'm just guessing/pointing it out.
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