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Post by cyphersmith on Aug 22, 2021 16:20:41 GMT
While a good idea for cleanliness, that doesn't really do much for preventing the spread of COVID, and that's been well known for a long time. |
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Post by cyphersmith on Aug 22, 2021 16:26:47 GMT
Except that's pure bullshit. The COVID vaccine WAS tested on animals. And DIDN'T have those side effects. Sure, it was done in parallel with the Phase 1 trials, but they were still done. All of the testing that is usually done for a vaccine WAS done for the COVID vaccines (at least the ones in the US and EU). And you still don't get that we are STILL IN AN EMERGENCY SITUATION. Shit's fucked up, and that's not going to significantly change for at least a year. Beyond that, it wasn't just based on the SARS vaccine trials. It was ALSO based on MERS research, which only halted because of funds drying up. You're ALSO ignoring the fact that when we put a fuckton of money and effort behind achieving a goal with many different vectors to get there (and there are dozens of attempts that failed) things often happen really fast. I think I might not have been clear (mea culpa) - we did the animal testing in parallel, as you correctly state - my point was that we did not wait until completing those trials before starting testing them on people, so "skipping over" was probably not the most apropos choice of phrase. That having been said, I beg to differ - we are in an emergency now of our own making rather than an actual emergency. Despite the media attempting to paint it as a crisis, the vast majority of people were never in danger of "got the covid, I guess I need to get on a vent and then die." Now, that 99+% of people who recover with no problems is even closer to 100%. All of the data is showing that hospitalization and death is far less even with more transmittable variants. You'll note that the media and governments continue to focus on case counts - ignoring the fact that case counts only ever mattered as a means of determining where the outbreaks are. From a public policy perspective, who cares how many get a virus when almost every one of them recovers with no problems. You keep harping on the "most people won't die from COVID" thing. It's hospitalizations that count, and your "data" seems wrong since there are a lot of places where people are unable to go to the hospital because there's no room. Also, COVID does damage to your body EVEN when you don't get symptoms. |
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Post by 3catcircus on Aug 22, 2021 16:46:52 GMT
You also say that every time you're wrong as well and yes, I've read the article. It's not saying what you think it's saying. Here's another one that spells out the different kinds of masks you can get and their effectiveness.
The reason why the blue surgical masks aren't as effective as the others is the fact that people don't wear them properly and are ill-fitting. You have to find a mask that fits well, is snug against the mouth and nostrils. You also have to be careful about the kind of fabric that is used with cloth masks.
You've basically stated time and again that masks don't work. They do. It's been proven they work. You just have to choose the ones that fit your particular face and wear it properly.
Also, get the vaccine, social distance and wash your hands.
You lack any understanding of human nature. The average person isn't getting an N95 and wearing it properly - surgical masks made in China cost less; wearing a properly fitted mask is annoyingly difficult - hard to breathe, sweaty, and claustrophobic. For those two reasons (and probably more I've not thought about), most people are wearing cheap leaky makes that provide little protection and actually increase risk for everyone else. That's pretty much the definition of "does not work." |
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Post by 3catcircus on Aug 22, 2021 20:26:04 GMT
I think I might not have been clear (mea culpa) - we did the animal testing in parallel, as you correctly state - my point was that we did not wait until completing those trials before starting testing them on people, so "skipping over" was probably not the most apropos choice of phrase. That having been said, I beg to differ - we are in an emergency now of our own making rather than an actual emergency. Despite the media attempting to paint it as a crisis, the vast majority of people were never in danger of "got the covid, I guess I need to get on a vent and then die." Now, that 99+% of people who recover with no problems is even closer to 100%. All of the data is showing that hospitalization and death is far less even with more transmittable variants. You'll note that the media and governments continue to focus on case counts - ignoring the fact that case counts only ever mattered as a means of determining where the outbreaks are. From a public policy perspective, who cares how many get a virus when almost every one of them recovers with no problems. You keep harping on the "most people won't die from COVID" thing. It's hospitalizations that count, and your "data" seems wrong since there are a lot of places where people are unable to go to the hospital because there's no room. Also, COVID does damage to your body EVEN when you don't get symptoms. Hospitalizations "count" only insofar as the "2 weeks to flatten the curve" ever mattered. We've been through that to the tune of a year and a half. If medical facilities didn't ramp up supplies and staff, whose fault is that? Houston, for example, has a staffing problem, not a medical facility or material problem. You'd never know it unless you do the research. As to access to the hospital, that's the blessing and curse of the US healthcare system. You have people who have a dozen pairs of $200 shoes who call the ambulance every time they get sick because they're never going to pay for the care, leaving it to increased insurance premiums on everyone else. You have people with covid who wait until they can't breathe to go seek treatment. You have people with the sniffles who rush to the hospital convinced they're dying from covid when they've got a cold. Staffing is low because of all of the elective (i.e. profitable) procedures that were cancelled, resulting in furloughs. People go where they can get a job, so you're never getting them back without paying huge bonuses to lure them away from new employers. You've got medical professionals being fired or threatened with firing for refusing to get covid vaccines without additional studies - that's a red flag that this is no longer an emergency situation. The past year was spent claiming they were all heroes, and now they're being fired. It's one or the other. Which is it? As to bodies in hallways, you need to look at bed-days as the primary hospital metric. I just finished a course of rabies vaccination treatment - here you can only get it done at the hospital, not your doctor's office. Other than the first visit, all of the others were on a gurney in the hallway. It's standard - it's quicker to change sheets and clean a gurney rather than an entire room in an ER. Ice been all over the world - being treated in an ER hallway at a hospital in the US is a far better standard of care than regular hospital beds in most of the rest of the world... Dinner hospitals are busy every day - they're going to be in trouble from *any* trauma situation, so covid is not any different in that regard. |
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Post by kirinke on Aug 23, 2021 11:17:39 GMT
You lack any understanding of human nature. The average person isn't getting an N95 and wearing it properly - surgical masks made in China cost less; wearing a properly fitted mask is annoyingly difficult - hard to breathe, sweaty, and claustrophobic. For those two reasons (and probably more I've not thought about), most people are wearing cheap leaky makes that provide little protection and actually increase risk for everyone else. That's pretty much the definition of "does not work." Huh. Except for the fact where there are no mask mandates, we're swamped with Delta cases and the hospitals are full up. Neither Texas nor Florida have mask mandates for example and there are no ICU beds available. In counties and states with mask mandates, you see a surprise, decrease in covid-19 cases.
So, yes. Masks work and you've not been proven right about anything concerning Covid-19 yet.
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Post by 3catcircus on Aug 23, 2021 11:56:18 GMT
You lack any understanding of human nature. The average person isn't getting an N95 and wearing it properly - surgical masks made in China cost less; wearing a properly fitted mask is annoyingly difficult - hard to breathe, sweaty, and claustrophobic. For those two reasons (and probably more I've not thought about), most people are wearing cheap leaky makes that provide little protection and actually increase risk for everyone else. That's pretty much the definition of "does not work." Huh. Except for the fact where there are no mask mandates, we're swamped with Delta cases and the hospitals are full up. Neither Texas nor Florida have mask mandates for example and there are no ICU beds available. In counties and states with mask mandates, you see a surprise, decrease in covid-19 cases.
So, yes. Masks work and you've not been proven right about anything concerning Covid-19 yet.
Conclusion: masks only make a difference when the rate of transmission is low to begin with. Exactly what anyone with any actual understanding of the science knows. Airborne respiratory viruses are gonna do what they do. Go ahead, wear your mask. It's not going to make a bit of difference when you're out and about unless it's an N95 or better. But you can feel safe engaging in health security theater. |
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Post by kirinke on Aug 23, 2021 13:46:37 GMT
Conclusion. You're an idiot. Wear a fucking mask if you're not vaccinated, get vaccinated.
Nothing you put down is factual.
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Post by 3catcircus on Aug 23, 2021 14:04:53 GMT
Conclusion. You're an idiot. Wear a fucking mask if you're not vaccinated, get vaccinated. Nothing you put down is factual. So, by extension, nothing that is in any study by any entity that isn't on the list approved by the DNC and fed to you as an approved opinion that isn't your own is factual... Got it - which means that you're not to be considered anything other than a trainable halfwit unworthy of intellectual engagement since you're incapable of reading information, drawing conclusions, and then debating the merits. The world needs ditch diggers and toothpaste tube cap putter-onners who are incapable of abstract thought, and you fit that bill just fine. youtu.be/poxEYM0RMto |
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Post by cyphersmith on Aug 23, 2021 15:56:40 GMT
You keep harping on the "most people won't die from COVID" thing. It's hospitalizations that count, and your "data" seems wrong since there are a lot of places where people are unable to go to the hospital because there's no room. Also, COVID does damage to your body EVEN when you don't get symptoms. Hospitalizations "count" only insofar as the "2 weeks to flatten the curve" ever mattered. We've been through that to the tune of a year and a half. If medical facilities didn't ramp up supplies and staff, whose fault is that? Houston, for example, has a staffing problem, not a medical facility or material problem. You'd never know it unless you do the research. As to access to the hospital, that's the blessing and curse of the US healthcare system. You have people who have a dozen pairs of $200 shoes who call the ambulance every time they get sick because they're never going to pay for the care, leaving it to increased insurance premiums on everyone else. You have people with covid who wait until they can't breathe to go seek treatment. You have people with the sniffles who rush to the hospital convinced they're dying from covid when they've got a cold. Staffing is low because of all of the elective (i.e. profitable) procedures that were cancelled, resulting in furloughs. People go where they can get a job, so you're never getting them back without paying huge bonuses to lure them away from new employers. You've got medical professionals being fired or threatened with firing for refusing to get covid vaccines without additional studies - that's a red flag that this is no longer an emergency situation. The past year was spent claiming they were all heroes, and now they're being fired. It's one or the other. Which is it? As to bodies in hallways, you need to look at bed-days as the primary hospital metric. I just finished a course of rabies vaccination treatment - here you can only get it done at the hospital, not your doctor's office. Other than the first visit, all of the others were on a gurney in the hallway. It's standard - it's quicker to change sheets and clean a gurney rather than an entire room in an ER. Ice been all over the world - being treated in an ER hallway at a hospital in the US is a far better standard of care than regular hospital beds in most of the rest of the world... Dinner hospitals are busy every day - they're going to be in trouble from *any* trauma situation, so covid is not any different in that regard. So you don't think that a staffing problem isn't caused by COVID? Oh, we've had a hospital staffing problem for a long time, but it has gotten significantly worse since the start of the pandemic. Oh, and guess what? The Pfizer vaccine is fully authorized for people 16+. |
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Post by kirinke on Aug 23, 2021 16:20:30 GMT
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Post by 3catcircus on Aug 23, 2021 17:26:00 GMT
Hospitalizations "count" only insofar as the "2 weeks to flatten the curve" ever mattered. We've been through that to the tune of a year and a half. If medical facilities didn't ramp up supplies and staff, whose fault is that? Houston, for example, has a staffing problem, not a medical facility or material problem. You'd never know it unless you do the research. As to access to the hospital, that's the blessing and curse of the US healthcare system. You have people who have a dozen pairs of $200 shoes who call the ambulance every time they get sick because they're never going to pay for the care, leaving it to increased insurance premiums on everyone else. You have people with covid who wait until they can't breathe to go seek treatment. You have people with the sniffles who rush to the hospital convinced they're dying from covid when they've got a cold. Staffing is low because of all of the elective (i.e. profitable) procedures that were cancelled, resulting in furloughs. People go where they can get a job, so you're never getting them back without paying huge bonuses to lure them away from new employers. You've got medical professionals being fired or threatened with firing for refusing to get covid vaccines without additional studies - that's a red flag that this is no longer an emergency situation. The past year was spent claiming they were all heroes, and now they're being fired. It's one or the other. Which is it? As to bodies in hallways, you need to look at bed-days as the primary hospital metric. I just finished a course of rabies vaccination treatment - here you can only get it done at the hospital, not your doctor's office. Other than the first visit, all of the others were on a gurney in the hallway. It's standard - it's quicker to change sheets and clean a gurney rather than an entire room in an ER. Ice been all over the world - being treated in an ER hallway at a hospital in the US is a far better standard of care than regular hospital beds in most of the rest of the world... Dinner hospitals are busy every day - they're going to be in trouble from *any* trauma situation, so covid is not any different in that regard. So you don't think that a staffing problem isn't caused by COVID? Oh, we've had a hospital staffing problem for a long time, but it has gotten significantly worse since the start of the pandemic. Oh, and guess what? The Pfizer vaccine is fully authorized for people 16+. The staffing problem was caused by public health authorities' overreaction to covid. When a hospital full of allegedly well-trained staff isn't allowed to perform life-saving surgery on non-covid patients or elective surgery for profit, they ended up having to furlough staff and potentially kill patients whose surgeries were delayed or who were so terrified of catching COVID that they self-elected to postpone. The problem isn't covid; it's the lack of proper reaction to covid by people who were convinced by sensationalist media and clueless PHAs. Most people can't help it - they don't understand risk, only their perception of risk (which is almost always wrong). You can't have people who do not understand risk making public policy decisions. It's the blind leading the blind. As to Pfizer's vax... I'll just leave this here:  Let that sink in - 46 years until we got a measles vaccine despite it's R0 of about 10-12 and it's ability to kill children... Likewise no vaccine for RSV even though it's a huge killer of infants and old people. In fact, all of these various pandemic measures essentially did nothing since covid is like every other airborne respiratory virus with an animal reservoir. Moreso, law of unintended consequences - RSV is rampant right now because the RSV season was likely delayed and because social distancing means infants and toddlers who would otherwise be exposed to it previously after being hit hard now. Even the CDC gets something right now and then: “Reduced circulation of influenza viruses during the past year might affect the severity of the upcoming influenza season given the prolonged absence of ongoing natural exposure to influenza viruses,” the CDC warned in its July 22 report." COVID, RSV, flu, rhinovirus, HPV, mumps, whatever... Ongoing natural exposure is the key phrase. There is always a little bit of ongoing immunity that well-meaning but stupid PHAs disrupted with lockdowns and masks. |
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Post by kirinke on Aug 23, 2021 18:07:49 GMT
Here's the thing. All of your charts are wrong or you have the context wrong. Covid-19 isn't the flu. Covid-19 isn't RSV. Covid-19 isn't measles. WE have a vaccine for measles. We have vaccines for flu. Measle vaccines are freaking mandatory, which is why the US doesn't have the problem it did 50+ years ago.
So basically, Flu and Covid-19 vaccines should be mandatory as well.
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Post by cyphersmith on Aug 23, 2021 19:38:23 GMT
So you don't think that a staffing problem isn't caused by COVID? Oh, we've had a hospital staffing problem for a long time, but it has gotten significantly worse since the start of the pandemic. Oh, and guess what? The Pfizer vaccine is fully authorized for people 16+. The staffing problem was caused by public health authorities' overreaction to covid. When a hospital full of allegedly well-trained staff isn't allowed to perform life-saving surgery on non-covid patients or elective surgery for profit, they ended up having to furlough staff and potentially kill patients whose surgeries were delayed or who were so terrified of catching COVID that they self-elected to postpone. The problem isn't covid; it's the lack of proper reaction to covid by people who were convinced by sensationalist media and clueless PHAs. Most people can't help it - they don't understand risk, only their perception of risk (which is almost always wrong). You can't have people who do not understand risk making public policy decisions. It's the blind leading the blind. As to Pfizer's vax... I'll just leave this here: View AttachmentLet that sink in - 46 years until we got a measles vaccine despite it's R0 of about 10-12 and it's ability to kill children... Likewise no vaccine for RSV even though it's a huge killer of infants and old people. In fact, all of these various pandemic measures essentially did nothing since covid is like every other airborne respiratory virus with an animal reservoir. Moreso, law of unintended consequences - RSV is rampant right now because the RSV season was likely delayed and because social distancing means infants and toddlers who would otherwise be exposed to it previously after being hit hard now. Even the CDC gets something right now and then: “Reduced circulation of influenza viruses during the past year might affect the severity of the upcoming influenza season given the prolonged absence of ongoing natural exposure to influenza viruses,” the CDC warned in its July 22 report." COVID, RSV, flu, rhinovirus, HPV, mumps, whatever... Ongoing natural exposure is the key phrase. There is always a little bit of ongoing immunity that well-meaning but stupid PHAs disrupted with lockdowns and masks. To be honest, your chart is full of shit. It fails to take tons of shit into account. Among other things, we have made significant advances in the last 20 years. They're actually testing an HIV vaccine soon using similar techniques as for the COVID vaccine. Further, you are still discounting the huge amount of people and money thrown at the problem. And honestly, many of the problems regarding the flu would decrease if we actually followed some of the methods we use for protection from COVID. But, of course, employers are against doing anything of the sort. Can't have employees calling in sick, after all. And your "all of these various pandemic measures essentially did nothing" is also full of shit. Sure, it's not going to go away, since any virus that isn't exclusive to humanity isn't going to be eradicated. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to control it. COVID isn't just deadly. It damages a large part of your body. It does some of that damage whether you feel sick or not. Some of which doesn't go away. It's NOT, aside from what you're saying, a respiratory disease. It's a circulatory disease. It causes clotting. That can cause damage to pretty much any part of your body. It can kill you. It can cause strokes. And damage from clots doesn't always cause any symptoms. Meaning you might not know until something else shows up and kills you or disables you because of the damage you have from having had COVID. |
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Post by 3catcircus on Aug 24, 2021 2:23:56 GMT
The staffing problem was caused by public health authorities' overreaction to covid. When a hospital full of allegedly well-trained staff isn't allowed to perform life-saving surgery on non-covid patients or elective surgery for profit, they ended up having to furlough staff and potentially kill patients whose surgeries were delayed or who were so terrified of catching COVID that they self-elected to postpone. The problem isn't covid; it's the lack of proper reaction to covid by people who were convinced by sensationalist media and clueless PHAs. Most people can't help it - they don't understand risk, only their perception of risk (which is almost always wrong). You can't have people who do not understand risk making public policy decisions. It's the blind leading the blind. As to Pfizer's vax... I'll just leave this here: View AttachmentLet that sink in - 46 years until we got a measles vaccine despite it's R0 of about 10-12 and it's ability to kill children... Likewise no vaccine for RSV even though it's a huge killer of infants and old people. In fact, all of these various pandemic measures essentially did nothing since covid is like every other airborne respiratory virus with an animal reservoir. Moreso, law of unintended consequences - RSV is rampant right now because the RSV season was likely delayed and because social distancing means infants and toddlers who would otherwise be exposed to it previously after being hit hard now. Even the CDC gets something right now and then: “Reduced circulation of influenza viruses during the past year might affect the severity of the upcoming influenza season given the prolonged absence of ongoing natural exposure to influenza viruses,” the CDC warned in its July 22 report." COVID, RSV, flu, rhinovirus, HPV, mumps, whatever... Ongoing natural exposure is the key phrase. There is always a little bit of ongoing immunity that well-meaning but stupid PHAs disrupted with lockdowns and masks. To be honest, your chart is full of shit. It fails to take tons of shit into account. Among other things, we have made significant advances in the last 20 years. They're actually testing an HIV vaccine soon using similar techniques as for the COVID vaccine. Further, you are still discounting the huge amount of people and money thrown at the problem. And honestly, many of the problems regarding the flu would decrease if we actually followed some of the methods we use for protection from COVID. But, of course, employers are against doing anything of the sort. Can't have employees calling in sick, after all. And your "all of these various pandemic measures essentially did nothing" is also full of shit. Sure, it's not going to go away, since any virus that isn't exclusive to humanity isn't going to be eradicated. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to control it. COVID isn't just deadly. It damages a large part of your body. It does some of that damage whether you feel sick or not. Some of which doesn't go away. It's NOT, aside from what you're saying, a respiratory disease. It's a circulatory disease. It causes clotting. That can cause damage to pretty much any part of your body. It can kill you. It can cause strokes. And damage from clots doesn't always cause any symptoms. Meaning you might not know until something else shows up and kills you or disables you because of the damage you have from having had COVID. Two simple questions totally debunks all of your assertions as to "but muh vaccine work is faster now." Why did the FDA approve the Pfizer vaccine before the trials are complete? Especially when the reports on myocarditis and pericarditis side effects aren't due until 2025. Would they have done so if the pharma companies weren't indemnified? |
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Post by kirinke on Aug 24, 2021 11:29:24 GMT
Answers to your questions:
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