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Post by kirinke on Sept 29, 2019 21:25:37 GMT
Do you honestly think Zelenski would admit that he was being extorted? He's in a very delicate position right now and dealing with an unstable ally. If he did admit to being extorted, there's no telling what Trump would do. So of course he wouldn't admit to it for that very real reason.
So yes, it does need to be investigated and right now, impeachment is the only way they can do it, since Trump has stonewalled them on every front. He can't stonewall impeachment. I'm sure the Democrats are well aware how fraught impeachment is and will be. Remember how reluctant Pelosi was in going forward. She has no choice.
Impeachment does not mean guilt. Nor does it mean removal. It's in essence a trial, a political one, but still a trial. He'll probably get off. We all know that.
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Post by Maxperson on Sept 29, 2019 22:05:31 GMT
Do you honestly think Zelenski would admit that he was being extorted? He's in a very delicate position right now and dealing with an unstable ally. If he did admit to being extorted, there's no telling what Trump would do. So of course he wouldn't admit to it for that very real reason. So yes, it does need to be investigated and right now, impeachment is the only way they can do it, since Trump has stonewalled them on every front. He can't stonewall impeachment. I'm sure the Democrats are well aware how fraught impeachment is and will be. Remember how reluctant Pelosi was in going forward. She has no choice. Impeachment does not mean guilt. Nor does it mean removal. It's in essence a trial, a political one, but still a trial. He'll probably get off. We all know that. So first, yes, Zelenski is either lying or telling the truth when he says he didn't feel any pressure to do what Trump wanted. That's obvious. What isn't obvious is whether he's lying or telling the truth, and we cannot assume that he's lying with something this big. Second, impeachment is NOT the only way they can do it. They didn't impeach Trump for the last 3 years. The had an independent investigator going after him and his associates. They could have easily done that again if they wanted. The Democrats have just been slavering over impeachment and went for the stick when it was thrown, not paying attention to whether or not the stick is going to land in a tar pit. Third, impeachment is not a trial. It's just a vote on whether or not to have a trial. If the president is impeached, the Senate will hold the trial. Fourth, you assume that Trump will get off with the trial. I'm betting that Mitch pulls the same bullshit he did with Obama's supreme court pick and just says that it has to wait until after the election. |
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Post by kirinke on Sept 29, 2019 22:30:31 GMT
Impeachment is the entire process. Inquiry, trial and all.
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Post by Devoid on Sept 30, 2019 0:56:17 GMT
The term impeachment used for both the entire process and the second step of the process: - [Inquiry] The Congress investigates. This investigation typically begins in the House Judiciary Committee, but may begin elsewhere.
- [Impeachment] The House of Representatives must pass, by a simple majority of those present and voting, articles of impeachment, which constitute the formal allegation or allegations. Upon passage, the defendant has been "impeached". Impeachment is to the House of Representatives as indictment is to a grand jury.
- [Trial] The Senate tries the accused. In the case of the impeachment of a president, the Chief Justice of the United States presides over the proceedings. For the impeachment of any other official, the Constitution is silent on who shall preside, suggesting that this role falls to the Senate's usual presiding officer, the President of the Senate who is also the Vice President of the United States. Conviction in the Senate requires a two-thirds supermajority vote. The result of conviction is removal from office.
Conviction immediately removes the defendant from office.Following conviction, the Senate may vote to further punish the individual by barring him or her from holding future federal office, elected or appointed. As the threshold for disqualification is not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, the Senate has taken the position that disqualification votes only require a simple majority rather than a two-thirds majority. The Senate has used disqualification sparingly, as only three individuals have been disqualified from holding future office.
Conviction does not extend to further punishment, for example, loss of pension. However, the convicted party is not protected from further criminal or civil proceedings in state and federal courts.
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 30, 2019 1:53:47 GMT
Essentially he's using the office for personal gain. Not good. There's no hard evidence of that yet. We don't even have soft evidence, all we have is unverified hearsay. I'm kinda off half a mind to believing the whistleblower was deliberate to further set the Democrats on the path to self immolation. They really threw themselves on this grenade. |
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Post by kirinke on Sept 30, 2019 2:17:30 GMT
It really could go either way. It depends on what they find and how stupid each side gets. Knowing both sides, it's gonna get pretty stupid quick.
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Post by Maxperson on Sept 30, 2019 4:23:44 GMT
Impeachment is the entire process. Inquiry, trial and all. Way to ignore... "first, yes, Zelenski is either lying or telling the truth when he says he didn't feel any pressure to do what Trump wanted. That's obvious. What isn't obvious is whether he's lying or telling the truth, and we cannot assume that he's lying with something this big." "Second, impeachment is NOT the only way they can do it..." "Fourth, you assume that Trump will get off with the trial..." |
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Post by kirinke on Sept 30, 2019 11:40:22 GMT
We also can't assume he's telling the truth either. Impeachment is the only course of action to stop Trump from continuing this behavior. Here's hoping he does. I have a bad, bad feeling that Pence is much worse than Trump.
I'm in a catch 22 position here. On one hand, YAY! A chance to get Trump out of office. On the other hand... Oh shit fuck. Pence is next in line. 
He is the main reason why most reasonable Democrats don't want Trump removed from office. Pence is even more cray-cray in his own special fuck-nut religiousosity.
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Post by 3catcircus on Sept 30, 2019 22:46:45 GMT
I was going to just respond to Ovi, but the kzach/kirinke idiocracy is just too smelly to ignore. Consider my response to be a PSA against those two waterheads not being institutionalized...
1. We have video evidence of Biden bragging about political extortion of a public official of a sovereign nation involving his son's personal gain.
2. We have proof of the ties between Burisma, the Atlantic Council and Adam Schiff as well as ties to Crowdstrike.
3. A sitting US President asking the president of a sovereign nation to inquire as to why they ended a criminal investigation involving US citizens is in no way a crime. It's done all the time. Our allies and friendly nations ask the US to investigate criminal activity by their citizens just as often. It's called what governments do.
4. The memo describing the call made it abundantly clear there was no quid pro quo. If you are too stupid to parse a paragraph you have no business discussing the subject at hand.
5. The alleged whistle blower has no standing - convenient how the IC eliminated the need for someone to have actual proof of alleged wrongdoing.
6. Scumbag Schiff has had the complaint for several months - too convenient to have a crew of shysters be the ones actually filling out the complaint in close proximity to removal of the requirement to have actual first-hand knowledge of wrongdoing.
Bottom-line - the political class assumed it'd be business as usual in the 2016 election and are pissed that the President plays hardball far better than they do and isn't beholden to them. He's been fucking up their government official-lobbyist-wall street-influence peddler cabal and they don't like it much.
It will only end when we forcibly remove every single elected official and every career bureaucrat and change the laws to not allow them to monetarily profit from public service. The only person qualified for elected office is the one who isn't running.
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 30, 2019 22:56:15 GMT
Impeachment is the only course of action to stop Trump from continuing this behavior. "This behavior"? You mean... acting like the presidents that have come before him? Where was your indignant outrage over 44 when he did these things? Is this another "but it's okay when the Democrats do it"? |
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Post by evileeyore on Sept 30, 2019 22:59:58 GMT
5. The alleged whistle blower has no standing - convenient how the IC eliminated the need for someone to have actual proof of alleged wrongdoing. Convenient like a trap. The more I think about this (expansion of the whistleblower protection to hearsay) the more it feels like a monkey trap/tar baby, set out for the Democrats to get stuck into. |
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Post by 3catcircus on Sept 30, 2019 23:22:46 GMT
5. The alleged whistle blower has no standing - convenient how the IC eliminated the need for someone to have actual proof of alleged wrongdoing. Convenient like a trap. The more I think about this (expansion of the whistleblower protection to hearsay) the more it feels like a monkey trap/tar baby, set out for the Democrats to get stuck into. Which is certainly possible, but don't let the Trump-haters hear that. They can't make up their minds as to whether he is a Machiavellian Prince of Darkness, or a drooling idiot... |
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Post by evileeyore on Oct 1, 2019 1:44:20 GMT
Convenient like a trap. The more I think about this (expansion of the whistleblower protection to hearsay) the more it feels like a monkey trap/tar baby, set out for the Democrats to get stuck into. Which is certainly possible, but don't let the Trumo-haters hear that. They can't make up their minds as to whether he is a Machiavellian Prince of Darkness, or a drooling idiot... I don't see why he can't be both. |
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Post by Ovinomancer on Oct 1, 2019 10:34:12 GMT
Which is certainly possible, but don't let the Trumo-haters hear that. They can't make up their minds as to whether he is a Machiavellian Prince of Darkness, or a drooling idiot... I don't see why he can't be both. This wasn't a trap laid by either side. Neither side could pull it off. Trump, especially, isn't playing 4d- chess. He's a bull in a china shop -- the china's thinking that it getting broken means people will come save it, and the people are happy to call it their bull so long as the china they don't like is getting broken. There's no clever or devious plan here. |
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Post by Kzach on Oct 1, 2019 13:33:33 GMT
As I suspected, what Kzach and kirinke are upset about isn't what happened You suspect shit. What happened is Trump abused the power of his office for his personal gain and you and Fox News are trying to make this about the flag, Biden and apple pie. You're either complicite or just a useful idiot. I'm amazed at the hypocracy of Trump's Super Defence Team of closet Republicans who cried (wolf) that Clinton was corrupt. Now corruption is clownish and ok. |
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