|
Post by Ovinomancer on Sept 27, 2019 19:50:56 GMT
For me, the problem is that he specifically asked for a favor from a foreign leader to investigate his political opponent. Typically, he hadn't actually looked all that close to what was going on, and didn't realize that many Ukrainians were grateful that the US put in enough additional pressure to get the guy out. And further that the investigation had already stopped by that point. The source for this is a recent Bloomberg article using a single source that happens to be the political rival of the removed prosecutor. And, in that, the source was cagey and said that the investigation was shelved from 2014 thorugh 2015. The Biden action happened at the end of 2016. On Feb 2, 2016, Shokin (the prosecuter Biden had fired) seized assets of Bursima (the company employing Biden's son) under anti-corruption statues. So, this story is, at best, a half-truth that obscures that there was current legal action against Bursima at the time of Biden's ultimatum. Sadly, a huge amount of the reporting on this story is single source and turns out to be innaccurate. The story about the ADNI threatening resignation -- false, etc. etc. This is another of those single source stories. The source here was cited as an advisor for the Ukrainian President. Turns out he was let go and distanced by the adminstration months before the call took place, so there's strong questions about the veracity of this claim. Again, the only source for this news is from an ex-advisor fired months before the call. There's even a correction on the ABC story. Add to this that another journalist, who's beat is in the Ukraine, has contacted the source and the source denied telling ABC that Biden was a condition at all, or that he even could tell ABC anything about the call. Of course, take this with a grain of salt, as it's also a single sourced report from the same source. So, yeah, given other reporting around this, this report, already corrected in a way that casts strong doubt on the source by the initial report, I'm very skeptical this is true. The aid was released without condition after the call. I think that looking a circumstantial evidence for a quid pro quo when there are many, many legitimate reasons for the action that don't even get near the question is a bad look. Unless you can tie that stoppage as a quid, which is further hard to do because Zelensky didn't even know that the aid had been delayed, nor was such delay related in any way as part of the call, I don't think this holds water. It might, but a lot of things need to happen before it does. And, surely, if there are senior White House officials willing to discuss the contents of the call with the whistleblower, then there's plenty of sources to reveal actual evidence about the stoppage? So, yes and no. The transcript was moved to a classified network, but there's no allegation of code-word classification. The report also states that the whistleblower, who didn't have access to any system that such transcripts are located on, either assumed or took the word of his sources that there was no national security reasons to do so. This is carefully worded to appear bad while completely eliding that diplomatic correspondance is often classified at the Secret level, even absent specific national security discussions. This is something the State Dept does all the time. Also, I don't see how a personal discussion between the President of the US and the leader of a foreign country doesn't count as a national security issue, but, hey, I may be weird on that one. Public discussions, sure, not classified, but private ones? The fact that the Ukrainian President requested specific additional weapon systems in specific numbers alone would, from my experience, merit classification. But, I'm just a guy on the internet, so, by all means, form your own opinions. Be careful that you're not being lead by the the nose using leading language, though. I think the whistleblower likely acted with personal integrity, here. They heard some things from friends and collegues that disturbed them, so they reported it. Sounds good, even if they did hate Trump, if what they wrote was what they knew, it seems legit. I'd rather such things get reported. However, the person was reporting something they thought might be wrong, and did so in ways to highlight what they thought was wrong -- based on second or third hand knowledge. They're also a seasoned IC professional who knows how to write a report in a way to suggest an outcome (because, largely, that's the job). Be careful about using a layman's understaning while reading something prepared by a professional -- some words or phrases that are damning to a layman aren't to a professional in that space because they sound bad but are actually quite routine. There's also an interesting wrinkle that the ICIG whistleblower reporting form was apparently updated to allow 2nd hand reporting (from the previous requirement of direct knowledge) in early Aug between the resignation of the previous ADNI and the appointment of the current ADNI. I'm curious to see what that's all about -- it seems weird that the ICIG would reduce the level of reporting necessary but also not change the adjudication process (which remained the same). The timing is likley just coincidence, though. Still, would like to see the thinking on the change. And, all of that said, my problem with Trump on this isn't about the call, which is, at best, a little tone-deaf, but really, as with most things Trumpian, about some of his responses. He went out recently and said that the people that told the whistleblower things should be treated as spies in the old-ways (clearly meaning taken out and shot, colloquially speaking). That's bad-wrong. Whatever you make of the Rorschach blot* of the transcript, Trump's response to the situation is his usual temper-tantrum. *And Trump, himself, is pretty much a Rorschach blot. Those how hate him see demons in his every shadow, those who love him see angels, and those vanishing few who do neither see a butterfly. I often see clowns.
|
|
|
Post by kirinke on Sept 27, 2019 23:51:26 GMT
Essentially he's using the office for personal gain. Not good.
|
|
|
Post by evileeyore on Sept 28, 2019 1:24:11 GMT
Essentially he's using the office for personal gain. Not good. You are so fucking stupid it is mindblowing.
|
|
|
Post by evileeyore on Sept 28, 2019 1:33:06 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Kzach on Sept 28, 2019 6:55:22 GMT
|
|
|
Post by kirinke on Sept 28, 2019 23:27:52 GMT
Essentially he's using the office for personal gain. Not good. You are so fucking stupid it is mindblowing. Prove that I'm wrong. The evidence speaks for itself. Even the memo is pretty damning on that part.
The only come back you have is: "You're a poopy-head" type insult.
I'm so hurt. See the tears pouring from my eyes.
Not.
|
|
|
Post by evileeyore on Sept 29, 2019 3:53:31 GMT
You don't seem to understand what I said. Or rather, the manner of your responses are pointless, useless, artless, and show that you have an uneducated grasp of the situation. Ovis calls for others to speak about what has them pisseing themselves over "The Call", cyphersmith was the only respondent (and his response was good). Everyone else squirming in their chairs with anticipation over the Impeachment stayed mum (presumably because they can no longer articulate anything other than "Orangemanbad"). Ovi broke down the transcript of the call, which shows that (in this case) the Democrats have (once again) nothing to go after Trump over aside from hurt feelings and general hatred of him. Ovi then points out what upset him about the situation, that Trump is going after whistleblowers the same way Obama did, which is pretty horrible. You respond with "Essentially he's using the office for personal gain. Not good." So... "Orangemanbad". Now, if I were to ask you, "In what manner is The Call personally enriching Trump?" I bet you'll deflect or ignore the question... "The memo"? You mean the whistleblower memo which is all "Someone told me Trump did bad things, and then this other person told me Trump did bad things, and then yet a third person confided in me that Trump did really bad things, but I never saw any of these things myself, but I know they were very bad and that Trump did them because I was told they were bad and that Trump did them. And Trump really did it, pinky swear." That 'evidence'?
|
|
|
Post by kirinke on Sept 29, 2019 13:15:03 GMT
No. The memo Trump gave out. The one that described his call. That memo. It is also not hearsay when both Trump and Ghouliani proudly admit to it. He is enriching himself by using his office to coerce another foreign government in digging up political dirt on a potential opponent in the upcoming election.
Do quit puking up Trump's leaked talking points. It's so gauche.
|
|
|
Post by Ovinomancer on Sept 29, 2019 13:54:52 GMT
No. The memo Trump gave out. The one that described his call. That memo. It is also not hearsay when both Trump and Ghouliani proudly admit to it. He is enriching himself by using his office to coerce another foreign government in digging up political dirt on a potential opponent in the upcoming election.
Do quit puking up Trump's leaked talking points. It's so gauche.
I'm curious if you think that running for office automatically means you can't be investigated? Or, is it that thou can't be investigated by someone in the other party? Clearly, Trump can legally seek dirt on the opposition. This is time honored oppo research. Also, clearly, Trump can be investigated by Democrats, up to and including 4 Dem senators actually threatening the Ukraine to not close investigations into Trump. So, then, the bad here is using the power of the government to pay for/extort it, right? Okay, then, we have your quo -- asking a new President of Ukraine to look into a corruption question involving the 2nd highest officer of the US after the old President of the Ukraine shut it down. So, then, what's the quid? Need to have a quid for the quo in a quid pro quo. What did Trump threaten to withhold or offer? Recall thar the Ukrainian President had no knowledge of the temporary hold on funding, so it's not that. Can the President of the US discuss or encourage a foreign country to investigate corruption of US citizens on their shores, ever? In other words, if this is what you want to run Trump out on a rail for, consider the norms you're destroying to do so. And consider what future minefields you're setting up when the situation is reversed. Trump sucks, sure. This isn't something we should do just because of that.
|
|
|
Post by kirinke on Sept 29, 2019 14:12:16 GMT
You do like to spin things, don't you? Not falling for it. Let me ask you this, would you be totally okay with the same actions if a Democratic president pulled it?
No, of course not.
The President used his office for personal gain. Not to mention, he also risked national security to do so by holding up US aid to get what he wanted. I'm not okay with that at all.
Now if Trump went through official channels, that would be a different story. He did not. There was also a cover up attempt by putting the transcript on a secure server meant for classified data. So tell me, is that okay?
|
|
|
Post by Ovinomancer on Sept 29, 2019 16:14:57 GMT
You do like to spin things, don't you? Not falling for it. Let me ask you this, would you be totally okay with the same actions if a Democratic president pulled it? No, of course not. A Democrat did do it, that's what was asked to be looked into... you know, the thing you're mad at Trump for doing? I think you need to answer this question first. Aid was held up and released for other reasons. The fact that it was held up was not knowledhe the Ukrainian Presudent had during the call. You're stating a quo that doesn't exist for your purposes. Wait, what official channels exist outside the office of the president for the President of the US to talk to the leader of another country? Remember when I said be careful of the nirms you're destroying? This is a critical one. You're saying Presidents shouldn't be allowed to conduct foreign policy without bureaucratic approvals. Fuck and no. [/div][/quote] What was related on that is utterly routine for anyone that's ever dealt with classified material. It's exactly what happens if you have spillage of material.
|
|
|
Post by kirinke on Sept 29, 2019 16:23:38 GMT
At this point, I'm not buying anything the Trump administration is pushing. Impeachment is a process, not an assurance of removal.
The plain facts of the matter is, he was caught seeking foreign aid to discredit a political rival. Something he was told not to do. By a multitude of people and organizations. This is also an abuse of power and enrichment using the office of the president.
If he really wanted to be above board with all this, he'd have gone through proper channels. He did not. Therefor he is in alot of trouble.
|
|
|
Post by Maxperson on Sept 29, 2019 17:00:18 GMT
Essentially he's using the office for personal gain. Not good. There's no hard evidence of that yet. We have him asking for Biden to be investigated, as is appropriate when you find out about a high official that could be involved in corruption. There is no blatant quid pro quo or "Do this so I can get a political rival out of the way." in the "transcript"(in quotes, because it's not really a transcript). What Trump did could be corruption or it could be the appropriate action. We need something more to figure that out. The Democrats jumped the gun on this one and there's a good chance it will bite them in the ass.
|
|
|
Post by Kzach on Sept 29, 2019 17:28:26 GMT
Essentially he's using the office for personal gain. Not good. There's no hard evidence of that yet. We have him asking for Biden to be investigated, as is appropriate when you find out about a high official that could be involved in corruption. There is no blatant quid pro quo or "Do this so I can get a political rival out of the way." in the "transcript"(in quotes, because it's not really a transcript). What Trump did could be corruption or it could be the appropriate action. We need something more to figure that out. The Democrats jumped the gun on this one and there's a good chance it will bite them in the ass. It is amazing how CM's Trump Super Defence Team (Cuntmancer, Nazieyor, Maxipad) are liars. Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to twist Ukraine's arm into investigating Hunter Biden. That is what the whistle blower was complaining about. You're just all dishonest partisan hacks. www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-ordered-hold-on-military-aid-days-before-calling-ukrainian-president-officials-say/2019/09/23/df93a6ca-de38-11e9-8dc8-498eabc129a0_story.htmlWithholding military aid is part of the arcenal ofmeans presidents have to put pressure on foreign governments. But usually they do this to advance national interests. Trump did it for his personal gain (getting potential dirt on a political rival). He abused the powers of his office for his personal gains. And you hacks are ok with this sort of abuse. Or Trump receiving bribes via his hotels. Ukraine's president made sure Trump knew during that call that he stayed at Trump's hotel in New York. "Zelensky then takes the opportunity to pivot: “I would like to tell you that I actually have a lot of Ukrainian friends that live in the United States. Actually, the last time I traveled to the United States I stayed in New York near Central Park and I stayed at the Trump Tower.”" www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/9/27/20886789/trump-zelensky-hotel-call-transcript No curruption here. CM's Trump Super Team to the Rescue! They'll talk about Biden, Clinton, Obama, but not Trump's corruption and abuse of power. They'll gladly vote for him again in 2020! You deserved to be impoverished by the corrupt politicians you defend. Morons.
|
|
|
Post by Ovinomancer on Sept 29, 2019 18:43:48 GMT
There's no hard evidence of that yet. We have him asking for Biden to be investigated, as is appropriate when you find out about a high official that could be involved in corruption. There is no blatant quid pro quo or "Do this so I can get a political rival out of the way." in the "transcript"(in quotes, because it's not really a transcript). What Trump did could be corruption or it could be the appropriate action. We need something more to figure that out. The Democrats jumped the gun on this one and there's a good chance it will bite them in the ass. It is amazing how CM's Trump Super Defence Team (Cuntmancer, Nazieyor, Maxipad) are liars. Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine to twist Ukraine's arm into investigating Hunter Biden. That is what the whistle blower was complaining about. You're just all dishonest partisan hacks. www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-ordered-hold-on-military-aid-days-before-calling-ukrainian-president-officials-say/2019/09/23/df93a6ca-de38-11e9-8dc8-498eabc129a0_story.htmlWithholding military aid is part of the arcenal ofmeans presidents have to put pressure on foreign governments. But usually they do this to advance national interests. Trump did it for his personal gain (getting potential dirt on a political rival). He abused the powers of his office for his personal gains. And you hacks are ok with this sort of abuse. Or Trump receiving bribes via his hotels. Ukraine's president made sure Trump knew during that call that he stayed at Trump's hotel in New York. "Zelensky then takes the opportunity to pivot: “I would like to tell you that I actually have a lot of Ukrainian friends that live in the United States. Actually, the last time I traveled to the United States I stayed in New York near Central Park and I stayed at the Trump Tower.”" www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/9/27/20886789/trump-zelensky-hotel-call-transcript No curruption here. CM's Trump Super Team to the Rescue! They'll talk about Biden, Clinton, Obama, but not Trump's corruption and abuse of power. They'll gladly vote for him again in 2020! You deserved to be impoverished by the corrupt politicians you defend. Morons. As I suspected, what Kzach and kirinke are upset about isn't what happened, even in the source docs. Zelenski didn't know about the delay in aid during the call -- said so himself -- so that's clearly not part of a quid pro quo. Further to Kzach's midunderstanding, the delay in aid wasn't even in the whistleblower report (which Kzach's own link says). As for staying in Trump properties, that's a minefield of requiring a professional political class because someone with a business or property must be disqualified. Honestly, if you think the amount Trump might make on Zelanski's stay is enough to bribe him, the Dems would have already caught him.
|
|